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Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 1)
by RS  admin@creationpie.com : 1024 x 640


1. Matthew 1:23 Gott mit uns
A common Christmas verse from Matthew is the following. The "God with us" has been used by many empires as a military slogan.

Verse routeMatthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [kjv]
Verse routeιδου η παρθενος εν γαστρι εξει και τεξεται υιον και καλεσουσιν το ονομα αυτου εμμανουηλ ο εστιν μεθερμηνευομενον μεθ ημων ο θεος [gnt]
Verse routeEmmanuhelNobiscum Deus [v]
Verse routeEmanuelGott mit uns. [lu]
Verse routeЕммануилс нами Бог. [rus]

German belt buckleThe Luther German from the 1500's uses the German phrase "Gott mit uns""God with us", a phrase that often used by Germany in war. Powers such as Germany, Russia, Roman Empire(s), and others, have used this phrase as a "battle cry".

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2. Russian battle cry
Verse routeMatthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [kjv]
Verse routeЕммануилс нами Бог. [rus]


The Russian phrase "С нами Бог" (s na-mee bog) ≈ "God with us" has been used at various times as a battle cry. The Russian word "Бог" (bowg) ≈ "God" appears to be related to the city name "Baghdad".

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3. Latin war cry
Verse routeMatthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [kjv]
Verse routeEmmanuhelNobiscum Deus [v]


The Latin phrase "Nobiscum Deus""God with us" had been earlier used as a battle cry in the late Western Roman and then the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) empires (and later in various countries).

Information sign More: Matthew 1:23 Gott mit uns

4. In God we Trust
Verse routePsalms 16:1 Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust. [kjv]
Verse routeστηλογραφια τω δαυιδ φυλαξον με κυριε οτι επι σοι ηλπισα [lxx]

Book: In God we trust: All others pay cash

The United States motto "In God we Trust" is related to the phrase "God with us" and has in interesting history.

The Greek word translated "trust" in the LXX (Septuagint) in Psalms 16:1 is the ancient Greek word "ελπίζω""expectation, hope" as in a well-founded persuasion, belief or faith.

Information sign More: In God we Trust

5. God and the Bible
Here is a Lincoln quote from his second Inaugural Address on March 4, 1865, soon before he was assassinated on April 14.
Both (North and South) read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. … The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. Abraham Lincoln (16th U.S. President)

Lincoln used a number of Bible passages in this address (omitted here).

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6. Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 1)
Verse routeRomans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
Verse routeτι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
Verse routehaecprocontra … [v]

Book: Battle cry of freedom
This verse sounds like it could be a "battle cry" or a puffed-up-in-pride "badge of honor". Some pastors promote this misconception. Let us "bridge" some translation issues.
Paul will go on to answer this question. Paul, like Jesus, often has secondary (or more) meanings in what he says. Here is appears to be that we should consider no one "below" is and that only God is "above" us.

7. Romans 6:14 Paul and double meaning
Ten commandments
The following appear to differ only in the space in the text - there are none in the original Greek. Both are objects in accusative case ending. Accents were added later.
Verse routeRomans 6:14 … ye are not under the law, but under grace. [kjv]
Verse routeαμαρτια γαρ υμων ου κυριευσει ου γαρ εστε υπο νομον αλλα υπο χαριν [gnt]

Paul can be saying (at least) two things (and all can be true). This appears to be the main emphasis of Romans. The word for "grace" is that of "favor" and can be translated as "purpose".

Information sign More: Romans: Under the law as in sewer pipes

8. Romans 8:1
Paul starts Romans 8 with this verse which is related to some things Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3.
Verse routeRomans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [kjv]
Verse routeουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου [gnt]

The ancient Greek word "νῦν""now" and is related to the Latin word "num""now" and the English word "now" and the German word "nun""now". The "condemnation" is not "now" but could be "later" if one does not do what they are supposed to do. A different word "judge" means to separate.

Might this help answer the question of "once saved always saved"?

Future topic Details are left as a future topic.



Information sign More: Matthew 7:1-2 Here comes the judge, but just barley
Information sign More: John 3:1-17 Born from the beginnings

9. Romans 8:1

   Romans 8:1 
 All 
KJV: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Greek: ουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα

10. Judging related Greek words
Verse routeMatthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. [kjv]
Verse routeμη κρινετε ινα μη κριθητε [gnt]

Divide into two parts 1. "κρίνω""separate" which is related to "κριθη""barley". "ἀποκρίνω""answer a question" by separating (judging).
Didache life and death 2. "κρίμα""decision, sentence" related to "crime". "κρίσις""decision, determination" source of "crisis".
What do you see? 3. "κατακρίμα""enforcement of penalty". "κριτής""judge" may be involved in all three parts of the process.
Pilate has power to do all three parts. The only "separation" in Matthew 7 is that of who is going through the "narrow gate" (heaven) or remaining in the "wide area" (hell).

Information sign More: Matthew 7:1-2 Here comes the judge, but just barley

11. Over and under
Throughout Romans 8, Paul uses words for "above" and "below" many times. He does the same in Ephesians 3 and parts of Philippians.

Over and under
As John does in John 3, where "born again" is better translated as "born from the beginning" or "born from above" (or both), so Paul often uses double meanings.

Information sign More: John 3:1-17 Born from the beginnings

12. Romans 8:31
Verse routeRomans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
Verse routeτι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
Verse routehaecprocontra … [v]

Whisper chain Over and under
The word slide appears to start with the Latin which changes "above" or "over" to "for" based on the ending word that can mean "against".

13. Human activities and God
Verse routeRomans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
Verse routeτι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]

Many use this verse as a "battle cry" or puffed-up-in-pride "badge of honor". Some pastors (and others) promote this misconception.
Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right. Abraham Lincoln (16th U.S. President)

If God is the primary customer, then the customer is always right.

14. Romans 8:31 For this reason
Verse routeRomans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
Verse routeτι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
Verse routehaecprocontra … [v]

In English, one could say "for this reason" as in "over this reason" as in "because of this". The same in true in Greek in that the word for "over" can sometimes mean "for". Which one is your goal?

Information sign More: Expectation of a glorious Greek opinion on a doxology
Information sign More: Whether this or that: What is your opinion on glory?

15. Connecting verse
Verse routeRomans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
Verse routeτι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]

Parts above and below
This verse is a connecting phrase between two presentation points (groups of verses) and that uses double-meanings of "above" and "down" for a segue.

This verse is not a "battle cry" or a puffed-up-in-pride "badge of honor". Some pastors (and others) promote this misconception.
The "word slide" started with the Latin.

16. Romans 8:31 Connecting verse review
Verse routeRomans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
Verse routeτι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
Verse routehaecprocontra … [v]

Parts above and below Whisper chain
Connective paraphrase: Since God is above us (verses before - these things - above in the text), then who (might it be that) is down on us (following verses and chapters - down below in the text)?

The word slide started with the Latin.

17. Pride before the fall
Verse routeProverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. [kjv]
Verse routeπρο συντριβης ηγειται υβρις προ δε πτωματος κακοφροσυνη [lxx]
Verse routecontritionemsuperbiaruinam exaltatur spiritus [v]

The ancient Greek word "ὕβρις""pride, insolence" and is the source of the English word "hubris". Paul repeats the idea to Timothy using different words.

Verse route1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [kjv]
Verse routeμη νεοφυτον ινα μη τυφωθεις εις κριμα εμπεση του διαβολου [gnt]
Verse routeneophytumsuperbia elatusiudiciumdiaboli [v]



Information sign More: Neophyte
Information sign More: 1 Timothy 3:1-16 Style and content issues

18. Proverbs 16:18
 All 
KJV: Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Hebrew: לפני שבר גאון ולפני כשלון גבה רוח׃
Greek: προ συντριβης ηγειται υβρις προ δε πτωματος κακοφροσυνη
Latin: contritionem praecedit superbia et ante ruinam exaltatur spiritus

19. 1 Timothy 3:6
 All 
KJV: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Greek: μη νεοφυτον ινα μη τυφωθεις εις κριμα εμπεση του διαβολου
Latin: non neophytum ne in superbia elatus in iudicium incidat diaboli

20. Romans 8:31
   Romans 8:31 
 All 
KJV: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Greek: τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων
Latin: quid ergo dicemus ad haec si Deus pro nobis quis contra nos

21. Romans 8:32
Verse routeRomans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? [kjv]
Verse routeος γε του ιδιου υιου ουκ εφεισατο αλλα υπερ ημων παντων παρεδωκεν αυτον πως ουχι και συν αυτω τα παντα ημιν χαρισεται [gnt]



As seen on TVIn Greek, like in many languages, saying "all" does not mean "all" as in everything in the universe. The "all" needs to be in the context in which the word is used. An obvious meaning here is that is that He will "give us everything (we need)". The KJV (King James Version) infers and adds "freely" which is not in the Greek.

In mathematics and computer science programming language theory, this is similar to the "free variable problem". That is, the scope of the "all" needs to be carefully defined for a statement or claim to be meaningful.

22. Romans 8:32
   Romans 8:32 
 All 
KJV: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Greek: ος γε του ιδιου υιου ουκ εφεισατο αλλ αλλα υπερ ημων παντων παρεδωκεν αυτον πως ουχι και συν αυτω τα παντα ημιν χαρισεται

23. Romans 8:33
Verse routeRomans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [kjv]
Verse routeτις εγκαλεσει κατα εκλεκτων θεου θεος ο δικαιων [gnt]

The KJV uses "any thing" which is inferred from the Greek.

The KJV uses "charge" is, in the Greek, that of "accusation".

The KJV uses "to the" is that of "κατά""down, according to, against". The idea is "getting down or serious" on something or someone.

24. Romans 8:33
   Romans 8:33 
 All 
KJV: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Greek: τις εγκαλεσει κατα εκλεκτων θεου θεος ο δικαιων

25. Romans 8:34,1 Condemnation
Verse routeRomans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [kjv]
Verse routeτις ο κατακρινων χριστος ιησους ο αποθανων μαλλον δε εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ος εστιν εν δεξια του θεου ος και εντυγχανει υπερ ημων [gnt]

Christ will "separate" (judge), decide the penalty (as in the sheep and goats), and "condemn". This is in the "second coming" and not the "first coming".

Verse route8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [kjv]
Verse routeουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου [gnt]

Some churches deny or omit the "second coming" or explain it away is already have happened. To do this, they must ignore or not talk about the many parts of the Bible that mention the "second coming".

Information sign More: Matthew 7:1-2 Here comes the judge, but just barley

26. Romans 8:34
   Romans 8:34 
 All 
KJV: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Greek: τις ο κατακρινων χριστος ιησους ο αποθανων μαλλον δε και εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ος και εστιν εν δεξια του θεου ος και εντυγχανει υπερ ημων
Latin: quis est qui condemnet Christus Iesus qui mortuus est immo qui resurrexit qui et est ad dexteram Dei qui etiam interpellat pro nobis

27. Song: Battle Hymn of the Republic
When the song was sung at a rally attended by President Lincoln, he cried out with tears in his eyes, "Sing it again!" (GodTube.com)
Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910) wrote the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" in 1861 at the outbreak of the American Civil War, being asked to write new words for "John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave" to the popular tune "Glory, Hallelujah".

The tune and words soon spread to troops, slaves, prisoners, etc. Music: Battle hymn of the republic


Information sign More: Song: Battle Hymn of the Republic

28. Verse 1
Mine eyes have seen the
    glory of the coming of the Lord;
he is trampling out the vintage
    where the grapes of wrath are stored;
he hath loosed the fateful
    lightning of his terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.

29. Refrain
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

30. Verse 3
He has sounded forth the
    trumpet that shall never call retreat;
he is sifting out the
    hearts of all before his judgment seat.
O be swift, my soul, to
    answer him; be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

31. Refrain
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

32. Romans 8:34 Intercession
Verse routeRomans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [kjv]
Verse routeτις ο κατακρινων χριστος ιησους ο αποθανων μαλλον δε εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ος εστιν εν δεξια του θεου ος και εντυγχανει υπερ ημων [gnt]
Verse routecondemnetmortuusresurrexitdexteraminterpellat … [v]

The KJV translates as "intercession" (with all the theological baggage) a Greek word that means "meet" as in having a "meeting" with a positive connotation. The ancient Greek word "ἐντυγχάνω""meet". There is a Greek word for "advocate", not used here, as someone who would represent us - the "Holy Spirit".

Information sign More: Calque: Advocate

33. Latin
Verse routeRomans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [kjv]
Verse routeτις ο κατακρινων χριστος ιησους ο αποθανων μαλλον δε εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ος εστιν εν δεξια του θεου ος και εντυγχανει υπερ ημων [gnt]
Verse routecondemnetmortuusresurrexitdexteraminterpellat … [v]
Verse routecondemnetmortuusresurrexitinterpellat … [v]

The translated meaning may have been influenced by the Latin word "interpello""interrupt by speaking, obstruct, impede" which has a negative connotation.

34. Strongs - intercession

35. Usage - intercession
*G1793 *5 ἐντυγχάνω (en-toong-khan'-o) : from G1722 and G5177; to chance upon, i.e. (by implication) confer with; by extension to entreat (in favor or against):--deal with, make intercession.
Word usage per chapter Words: ενετυχον εντυγχανει=3 εντυγχανειν


36. Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 2)
Verse routeRomans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]
Verse routeτις ημας χωρισει απο της αγαπης του χριστου θλιψις η στενοχωρια η διωγμος η λιμος η γυμνοτης η κινδυνος η μαχαιρα [gnt]

You will hear pastors who may have not analyzed this verse (and what follows) claim with boldness that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". Not only is that claim misleading but it appears to be inaccurate.

This and following verses lists things, events, etc., that will not separate us from the "love of Christ". If these lists are not "collectively exhaustive", then there are things that are not said here that could separate us from the "love of Christ". Paul will cover some of these in subsequent chapters.

Information sign More: Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 2)

37. End of page

by RS  admin@creationpie.com : 1024 x 640