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Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 1)
1. Gott mit uns
A common
Christmas verse from Matthew is the following. The "
God with us" has been used by many empires as a military slogan.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [kjv]
ιδου η παρθενος εν γαστρι εξει και τεξεται υιον και καλεσουσιν το ονομα αυτου εμμανουηλ ο εστιν μεθερμηνευομενον μεθ ημων ο θεος [gnt]
… Emmanuhel … Nobiscum Deus [v]
… Emanuel … Gott mit uns. [lu]
… Еммануил… с нами Бог. [rus]
The Luther German from the 1500's uses the German phrase
"Gott mit uns" ≈ "God with us", a phrase that often used by Germany in war. Powers such as Germany, Russia, Roman Empire(s), and others, have used this phrase as a "
battle cry".
2. Russian battle cry
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [kjv]
… Еммануил… с нами Бог. [rus]
The Russian phrase
"С нами Бог" (s na-mee bog) ≈ "God with us" has been used at various times as a battle cry. The Russian word
"Бог" (bowg) ≈ "God" appears to be related to the city name "
Baghdad".
3. Latin war cry
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [kjv]
… Emmanuhel … Nobiscum Deus [v]
The Latin phrase
"Nobiscum Deus" ≈ "God with us" had been earlier used as a battle cry in the late Western Roman and then the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) empires (and later in various countries).
4. In God we Trust
Psalms 16:1 Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust. [kjv]
στηλογραφια τω δαυιδ φυλαξον με κυριε οτι επι σοι ηλπισα [lxx]
The United States motto "
In God we Trust" is related to the phrase "
God with us" and has in interesting history.
The Greek word translated "
trust" in the
LXX (Septuagint) in Psalms 16:1 is the ancient Greek word
"ελπίζω" ≈ "expectation, hope" as in a well-founded persuasion, belief or faith.
5. God and the Bible
Here is a Lincoln quote from his second Inaugural Address on March 4, 1865, soon before he was assassinated on April 14.
Both (North and South) read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. … The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. Abraham Lincoln (16th U.S. President)
Lincoln used a number of Bible passages in this address (omitted here).
6. Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 1)
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
… haec … pro … contra … [v]
This verse sounds like it could be a "
battle cry" or a puffed-up-in-pride "
badge of honor". Some pastors promote this misconception. Let us "
bridge" some translation issues.
Paul will go on to answer this question. Paul, like Jesus, often has secondary (or more) meanings in what he says. Here is appears to be that we should consider no one "
below" is and that only God is "
above" us.
7. Romans 6:14 Paul and double meaning
The following appear to differ only in the space in the text - there are none in the original Greek. Both are objects in accusative case ending. Accents were added later.
The ancient Greek word "υπό νόμον" ≈ "under (the) law".
The ancient Greek word "ὑπόνομον" ≈ "underground passage, mine, water-pipe, conduit, sewer, vein of minerals".
Romans 6:14 … ye are not under the law, but under grace. [kjv]
αμαρτια γαρ υμων ου κυριευσει ου γαρ εστε υπο νομον αλλα υπο χαριν [gnt]
Paul can be saying (at least) two things (and all can be true).
☐ (on earth)
... you are not under law but under grace. (from above)
☐ (on earth)
... you are not sewer pipes but under purpose. (from above)
This appears to be the main emphasis of Romans. The word for "
grace" is that of "
favor" and can be translated as "
purpose".
8. Romans 8:1
Paul starts Romans 8 with this verse which is related to some things Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [kjv]
ουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"νῦν" ≈ "now" and is related to the Latin word
"num" ≈ "now" and the English word
"now" and the German word
"nun" ≈ "now". The "
condemnation" is not "
now" but could be "
later" if one does not do what they are supposed to do. A different word "
judge" means to separate.
Might this help answer the question of "
once saved always saved"?
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Details are left as a future topic.
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9. Romans 8:1
KJV: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Greek: ουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα
10. Judging related Greek words
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. [kjv]
μη κρινετε ινα μη κριθητε [gnt]
Pilate has power to do all three parts. The only
"separation" in Matthew 7 is that of who is going through the "
narrow gate" (heaven) or remaining in the "
wide area" (hell).
11. Over and under
Throughout Romans 8, Paul uses words for "
above" and "
below" many times. He does the same in Ephesians 3 and parts of Philippians.
The ancient Greek word "ὑπέρ" ≈ "above, over" as in English words starting with "hyper-" as in "hyperactive".
The ancient Greek word "κατά" ≈ "down, according to, against". The idea is "getting down or serious" on something or someone as in "downing me" or "diss" as in "disrespect".
As John does in John 3, where "
born again" is better translated as "
born from the beginning" or "
born from above" (or both), so Paul often uses double meanings.
12. Romans 8:31
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
… haec … pro … contra … [v]
The word slide appears to start with the Latin which changes "
above" or "
over" to "
for" based on the ending word that can mean "
against".
The Latin word "pro" ≈ "for, on behalf of, in front of" as in the English word "prolog".
The Latin word "contra" ≈ "against, contrary" as in the English word "contrary".
13. Human activities and God
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
Many use this verse as a "
battle cry" or puffed-up-in-pride "
badge of honor". Some pastors (and others) promote this misconception.
Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right. Abraham Lincoln (16th U.S. President)
If God is the primary customer, then the customer is always right.
Man's "righteousness" is "what is right" as in an "opinion" that is the "glory" of man (humanism).
God's "righteousness" is "what is right" as in an "opinion" that is the "glory" of God (theism).
14. Romans 8:31 For this reason
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
… haec … pro … contra … [v]
In English, one could say "
for this reason" as in "
over this reason" as in "
because of this". The same in true in Greek in that the word for "
over" can sometimes mean "
for".
Man's "righteousness" is "what is right" as in an "opinion" that is the "glory" of man (humanism).
God's "righteousness" is "what is right" as in an "opinion" that is the "glory" of God (theism).
Which one is your goal?
15. Connecting verse
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
This verse is a connecting phrase between two presentation points (groups of verses) and that uses double-meanings of "
above" and "
down" for a segue.
This verse is
not a "
battle cry" or a puffed-up-in-pride "
badge of honor". Some pastors (and others) promote this misconception.
Not: "We are ..." as in "God is for us" as in "better together".
Rather: "We are for God" as in "We want God's will".
The "
word slide" started with the Latin.
16. Romans 8:31 Connecting verse review
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]
… haec … pro … contra … [v]
Connective paraphrase:
Since God is above us (verses before - these things - above in the text), then who (might it be that) is down on us (following verses and chapters - down below in the text)?
The word slide started with the Latin.
"pro" ≈ "for, on behalf of, in front of".
"contra" ≈ "against, contrary".
17. Pride before the fall
18. Proverbs 16:18
KJV: Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Hebrew: לפני שבר גאון ולפני כשלון גבה רוח׃
Greek: προ συντριβης ηγειται υβρις προ δε πτωματος κακοφροσυνη
Latin: contritionem praecedit superbia et ante ruinam exaltatur spiritus
19. 1 Timothy 3:6
KJV: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Greek: μη νεοφυτον ινα μη τυφωθεις εις κριμα εμπεση του διαβολου
Latin: non neophytum ne in superbia elatus in iudicium incidat diaboli
20. Romans 8:31
KJV: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Greek: τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων
Latin: quid ergo dicemus ad haec si Deus pro nobis quis contra nos
21. Romans 8:32
Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? [kjv]
ος γε του ιδιου υιου ουκ εφεισατο αλλα υπερ ημων παντων παρεδωκεν αυτον πως ουχι και συν αυτω τα παντα ημιν χαρισεται [gnt]
In Greek, like in many languages, saying "
all" does not mean "
all" as in everything in the universe. The "
all" needs to be in the context in which the word is used. An obvious meaning here is that is that He will "
give us everything (we need)". The
KJV (King James Version) infers and adds "
freely" which is not in the Greek.
In mathematics and computer science programming language theory, this is similar to the "
free variable problem". That is, the scope of the "
all" needs to be carefully defined for a statement or claim to be meaningful.
22. Romans 8:32
KJV: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Greek: ος γε του ιδιου υιου ουκ εφεισατο αλλ αλλα υπερ ημων παντων παρεδωκεν αυτον πως ουχι και συν αυτω τα παντα ημιν χαρισεται
23. Romans 8:33
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [kjv]
τις εγκαλεσει κατα εκλεκτων θεου θεος ο δικαιων [gnt]
The
KJV uses "
any thing" which is inferred from the Greek.
The
KJV uses "
charge" is, in the Greek, that of "
accusation".
The
KJV uses "
to the" is that of
"κατά" ≈ "down, according to, against". The idea is "
getting down or serious" on something or someone.
God's "righteousness" is "what is right" as in an "opinion" that is the "glory" of God (theism).
Man's "righteousness" is "what is right" as in an "opinion" that is the "glory" of man (humanism).
24. Romans 8:33
KJV: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Greek: τις εγκαλεσει κατα εκλεκτων θεου θεος ο δικαιων
25. Romans 8:34,1 Condemnation
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [kjv]
τις ο κατακρινων χριστος ιησους ο αποθανων μαλλον δε εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ος εστιν εν δεξια του θεου ος και εντυγχανει υπερ ημων [gnt]
Christ will "
separate" (judge), decide the penalty (as in the sheep and goats), and "
condemn". This is in the "
second coming" and not the "
first coming".
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [kjv]
ουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου [gnt]
Some churches deny or omit the "
second coming" or explain it away is already have happened. To do this, they must ignore or not talk about the many parts of the Bible that mention the "
second coming".
26. Romans 8:34
KJV: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Greek: τις ο κατακρινων χριστος ιησους ο αποθανων μαλλον δε και εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ος και εστιν εν δεξια του θεου ος και εντυγχανει υπερ ημων
Latin: quis est qui condemnet Christus Iesus qui mortuus est immo qui resurrexit qui et est ad dexteram Dei qui etiam interpellat pro nobis
27. Song: Battle Hymn of the Republic
When the song was sung at a rally attended by President Lincoln, he cried out with tears in his eyes, "Sing it again!" (GodTube.com)
Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910) wrote the "
Battle Hymn of the Republic" in 1861 at the outbreak of the American Civil War, being asked to write new words for "
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave" to the popular tune "
Glory, Hallelujah".
The tune and words soon spread to troops, slaves, prisoners, etc.
28. Verse 1
Mine eyes have seen the
glory of the
coming of the Lord;
he is trampling out the vintage
where the grapes of
wrath are stored;
he hath loosed the fateful
lightning of his
terrible swift sword;
His
truth is marching on.
29. Refrain
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.
30. Verse 3
He has sounded forth the
trumpet that shall never call retreat;
he is sifting out the
hearts of all before his
judgment seat.
O be swift, my soul, to
answer him; be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.
31. Refrain
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.
32. Romans 8:34 Intercession
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [kjv]
τις ο κατακρινων χριστος ιησους ο αποθανων μαλλον δε εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ος εστιν εν δεξια του θεου ος και εντυγχανει υπερ ημων [gnt]
… condemnet … mortuus … resurrexit … dexteram … interpellat … [v]
The
KJV translates as "
intercession" (with all the theological baggage) a
Greek word that means "
meet" as in having a "
meeting" with a
positive connotation. The ancient Greek word
"ἐντυγχάνω" ≈ "meet".
"εν" ≈ "in".
"τυγχάνω" ≈ "happen, succeed".
"τεύχω" ≈ "make, do, perform, cause, prepare".
There is a Greek word for "
advocate", not used here, as someone who would represent us - the "
Holy Spirit".
33. Latin
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [kjv]
τις ο κατακρινων χριστος ιησους ο αποθανων μαλλον δε εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ος εστιν εν δεξια του θεου ος και εντυγχανει υπερ ημων [gnt]
… condemnet … mortuus … resurrexit … dexteram … interpellat … [v]
… condemnet … mortuus … resurrexit … interpellat … [v]
The translated meaning may have been influenced by the
Latin word
"interpello" ≈ "interrupt by speaking, obstruct, impede" which has a
negative connotation.
34. Strongs - intercession
- *G1793 *5 ἐντυγχάνω (en-toong-khan'-o) : from G1722 and G5177; to chance upon, i.e. (by implication) confer with; by extension to entreat (in favor or against):--deal with, make intercession.
- εντυγχανει *3
- Romans 8:27 ... is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
- Romans 8:34 ... of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
- Romans 11:2 ... of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
- ενετυχον
- Acts 25:24 ... all the multitude of the Jews have dealt with me, both at ...
- εντυγχανειν
- Hebrews 7:25 ... ever liveth to make intercession for them.
35. Usage - intercession
*G1793 *5 ἐντυγχάνω (en-toong-khan'-o) : from G1722 and G5177; to chance upon, i.e. (by implication) confer with; by extension to entreat (in favor or against):--deal with, make intercession.
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Words: ενετυχον εντυγχανει=3 εντυγχανειν
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36. Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 2)
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]
τις ημας χωρισει απο της αγαπης του χριστου θλιψις η στενοχωρια η διωγμος η λιμος η γυμνοτης η κινδυνος η μαχαιρα [gnt]
You will hear pastors who may have not analyzed this verse (and what follows) claim with boldness that "
Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". Not only is that claim misleading but it appears to be inaccurate.
This and following verses lists things, events, etc., that will
not separate us from the "
love of Christ". If these lists are not "
collectively exhaustive", then there are things that are not said here that
could separate us from the "
love of Christ". Paul will cover some of these in subsequent chapters.
37. End of page
Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. [kjv]
προ συντριβης ηγειται υβρις προ δε πτωματος κακοφροσυνη [lxx]
contritionem … superbia … ruinam exaltatur spiritus [v]
1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [kjv]
μη νεοφυτον ινα μη τυφωθεις εις κριμα εμπεση του διαβολου [gnt]
… neophytum … superbia elatus … iudicium … diaboli [v]
