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Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 2)
1. Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 2)
2. Romans 8:31 Connecting verse review
Romans 8:31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
τι ουν ερουμεν προςταυταει ο θεοςυπερημων τιςκαθημων [gnt]
… haec … pro … contra … [v]
Connective paraphrase: Since God is above us (verses before - these things - above in the text), then who (might it be that) is down on us (following verses and chapters - down below in the text)?
3. Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 2)
Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]
τις ημαςχωρισειαπο της αγαπης του χριστουθλιψιςηστενοχωριαηδιωγμοςηλιμοςηγυμνοτηςηκινδυνοςημαχαιρα [gnt]
You will hear pastors who may have not analyzed this verse (and what follows) claim with boldness that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". Not only is that claim misleading but it appears to be inaccurate.
This and following verses lists things, events, etc., that will not separate us from the "love of Christ". If these lists are not "collectively exhaustive", then there are things that are not said here that could separate us from the "love of Christ". Paul will cover some of these in subsequent chapters.
4. Aristotle
Aristotle, in his Sophistic Refutations (and other works) covers ways that can be used to deceive, how to detect them, etc. He has (at least) three main points for a deception that are relevant here.
One may be able to demonstrate that a conclusion is incorrect.
One may be able to show the logic used is incorrect.
One should then show why the faulty logic appeared to be correct.
In ancient times, Aristotle relates how Zeno's proof that "motion is impossible", called Zeno's paradox, is flawed since it can easily be demonstrated incorrect by moving.
When Greek philosopher "Διογένης Λαέρτιος," ≈ "Diogenes Laertius" heard the claim, he got up and walked away to demonstrate that the claim was invalid. [math class and limits]
It took over 2,000 years, with the discovery and use of calculus, to be able to actually prove that what Zeno claimed to proved was not valid.
English: For it is possible for a man to show that a false conclusion has been reached without showing on what point it turns, as, for instance, in Zeno'sargument that motion is impossible. (Loeb #400, p. 123)
Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]
τις ημαςχωρισειαπο της αγαπης του χριστουθλιψιςηστενοχωριαηδιωγμοςηλιμοςηγυμνοτηςηκινδυνοςημαχαιρα [gnt]
8:37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [kjv]
Here is a table. Paul then says "none of these". Do you see a pattern here?
All the things that might separate from love of Christ?
KJV: Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Greek: κατα ζηλονζηλοςδιωκων την εκκλησιαν κατα δικαιοσυνην την εν νομω γενομενος αμεμπτος
10. Romans 8:35 Demonstration
Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]
τις ημαςχωρισειαπο της αγαπης του χριστουθλιψιςηστενοχωριαηδιωγμοςηλιμοςηγυμνοτηςηκινδυνοςημαχαιρα [gnt]
Some pastors will claim with boldness that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". A demonstration that refutes the conclusion is as follows.
If "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ", then we can do anything we want, any time we want, since "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". This is a direct implication of the claim. Otherwise, the claim is not really what it claims to be.
Let us now proceed to analyze the claim.
11. Nothing 1
Here are the steps in the logic.
Neither "A" nor "B" can stop us.
12. Nothing 2
In addition, neither "C" nor "D" can stop us.
13. Nothing 3
In addition, neither "E" nor "F" can stop us.
14. Nothing 4
Therefore, the conclusion is that "Nothing can stop us!".
Do you see a flaw in the logic?
15. Nothing 5
Did I forget to tell you that "G" or "H" (and perhaps other things such is "I", "J", "K", etc.) can stop us?
KJV: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Greek: τις ημας χωρισει απο της αγαπης του χριστου θλιψις η στενοχωρια η διωγμος η λιμος η γυμνοτης η κινδυνος η μαχαιρα
17. Romans and Psalms : Sheep for the slaughter
Romans 8:36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [kjv]
καθως γεγραπται οτι ενεκεν σουθανατουμεθαολην την ημερανελογισθημενωςπροβατασφαγης [gnt]
Psalms 44:22Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. [kjv]
οτι ενεκα σουθανατουμεθαολην την ημεραν ελογισθημεν ωςπροβατασφαγης [lxx]
Discuss: Is this "killed" a physical or figurative "killing"?
Take care of your body as if you were going to live forever; and take care of your soul as if you were going to die tomorrow.Saint Augustine (Early Christian father)
Here, the "all" is quantified directly in the verse itself. Often, one needs to look outside the verse at the context to determine a proper meaning of "all".
The ancient Greek word "ὑπερνικάω" ≈ "conqueror" uses the Greek prefix for "above". It is made up (by Paul) of two words.
The ancient Greek word "ὑπέρ" ≈ "above, over" as in English words starting with "hyper-".
The ancient Greek word "νικάω" ≈ "win, conquer" and is the source of the English word "Nike" as in the name of the shoe company.
19. Romans 8:37,31 All these things
Romans 8:37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [kjv]
When a word is used only once and is not common in other Greek texts, Paul may have a specific meaning in mind.
*G5245 *1 ὑπερνικάω (hoop-er-nik-ah'-o) : from G5228 and G3528; to vanquish beyond, i.e. gain a decisive victory:--more than conquer.
The secondary meaning by Paul appears to be that of a "victory from above" by God and not by us. Some will (inappropriately) associate this "conqueror" word with the battle cry slogan in verse 31.
8:31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]
KJV: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Greek: καθως γεγραπται οτι ενεκαενεκεν σου θανατουμεθα ολην την ημεραν ελογισθημεν ως προβατασφαγης
24. Song: Victory in Jesus
1 Corinthians 15:57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [kjv]
τω δε θεω χαρις τω διδοντι ημιν τονικοςδια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου [gnt]
Eugene Bartlett (1885-1941) wrote the words and music to the hymn "Victory in Jesus". The last verse of the song "Victory in Jesus" talks about a "mansion".
Born in Missouri, moved to Arkansas, music store business
In 1939, at age 54, he suffered a stroke, then wrote "Victory in Jesus".
What are "all these things" that could separate us from the "love of Christ"? Here is the list from two verses earlier. Is this list "collectively exhaustive" (include all possibilities)?
All the things that might separate from love of Christ?
tribulation
distress
persecution
famine
nakedness
peril
sword
Discuss: Into what categories in the above table do deception and false teaching fit? Paul will go on to, in future verses and chapters, cover some of these possibilities.
30. Combined verses
Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]
τις ημαςχωρισειαπο της αγαπης του χριστουθλιψιςηστενοχωριαηδιωγμοςηλιμοςηγυμνοτηςηκινδυνοςημαχαιρα [gnt]
8:37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [kjv]
Some things that can separate are "false teaching" and "deception".
Discuss: Why might a pastor not want to point this out but instead change the meaning to the absolute statement "Nothing can separate from the love of Christ"?
31. Matthew 13:4,19 Birds and the evil one
At the request of the disciples, Jesus provides the code-word meaning of the "birds" or "fowls" as those of the "wicked one". This happens when one does "not understand" as in "deception" (including self-deception).
Matthew 13:4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: [kjv]
13:19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [kjv]
The "catcheth away" is related to the word for "rapture". The KJV translates as "evil" or "wicked" the Greek word that means "oppression" or "oppressor".
Matthew 13:4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: [kjv]
και εν τω σπειρειν αυτον α μεν επεσενπαρα την οδονκαι ελθοντα ταπετεινακατεφαγεναυτα [gnt]
13:19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [kjv]
παντος ακουοντος τον λογον της βασιλειας καιμη συνιεντοςερχεται οπονηροςκαιαρπαζειτο εσπαρμενον εν τη καρδια αυτου ουτος εστιν οπαρα την οδονσπαρεις [gnt]
The Greek for "snatch away" is the word used for "rapture" and the source of the English word "harpoon". It is also used as "ravenous" in terms of "wolves".
Saying: You'll be birdseed. The "seed" that was "snatched away" in parable 1 appears to have been deposited (by the "birds") in parable 2 as "weeds" and then grows into a "tree" in parable 3 so that those "birds" have a place to make their "nests".
Matthew 10:28And fearnot them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but ratherfear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [kjv]
Jesus tells us who we should "fear" and it is not "fear" about the cares and concerns of this world. The most dangerous attacks are not from the outside but from the inside and involve deception.
One cannot "destroy the soul" by "killing" the body is in persecution (e.g., by the Roman administrations). The primary way to "destroy" the "soul" is through deception so that you "sell yourself out" or are "sold out".
Matthew 10:29Are not two sparrowssold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. [kjv]
ουχι δυοστρουθιαασσαριουπωλειταικαιενεξ αυτων ουπεσειταιεπι την γηνανευτου πατρος υμων [gnt]
10:30But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. [kjv]
υμων δε και αιτριχεςτηςκεφαληςπασαιηριθμημεναιεισιν [gnt]
10:31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. [kjv]
μηουν φοβεισθεπολλωνστρουθιωνδιαφερετευμεις [gnt]
Discuss:
How might "sparrows" (birds of the evil one) deceive to "destroy the soul" in order to achieve "earthly gain" (money) by "selling out"?
Do "sparrows" succeed because those being deceived do not "understand"? This is what Jesus says of the birds in the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13.
Have those "deceived" separated themselves from the love of Christ?
Romans 8:39Nor height, nor depth, nor any othercreature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]
ουτευψωμαουτεβαθοςουτε τιςκτισιςετεραδυνησεταιημαςχωρισαιαπο τηςαγαπηςτου θεου της εν χριστω ιησου τω κυριω ημων [gnt]
Here we see, in English, Paul's repetition of the idea of "above" and "below" using "height" and "depth".
The "other" in Greek means "different" as in "other creature" that is a "different creature". What type of "creature" or "creation" might this "other creature" be?
8:39Nor height, nor depth, nor any othercreature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]
ουτευψωμαουτεβαθοςουτε τιςκτισιςετεραδυνησεταιημαςχωρισαιαπο τηςαγαπηςτου θεου της εν χριστω ιησου τω κυριω ημων [gnt]
Hint: The "any other creature" is the important part of this sequence.
40. Table
Persuasive opinion
death
life
angels
powers of evil
things present
things to come
height
depth
any other ‑
(different) creature
Does this list include every possibility? Is it "collectively exhaustive"?
The "other" in the Greek is "other (different)" and not "other (similar)".
Discuss: Into what categories in the above table do deception and false teaching fit? What other categories might not be in the above table?
Discuss: Why might a pastor not want to point this out but instead change the meaning to the absolute statement "Nothing can separate from the love of God"?
41. Others
The English word "other" can mean something that is similar or is different.
English
Greek
Greek
other
other (similar)
άλλος
other
other (different)
έτερος
Greek has two words for "other". One means "other (similar)" and one means "other (different)".
*G243 *155 ἄλλος (al'-los) : a primary word; "else," i.e. different (in many applications):--more, one (another), (an-, some an-)other(-s, -wise).
*G2087 *99 ἕτερος (het'-er-os) : of uncertain affinity; (an-, the) other or different:--altered, else, next (day), one, (an-)other, some, strange.
The ancient Greek word "ἕτερος" ≈ "other - different" and is related to the English word "asunder" and is the prefix of English words such as "heterosexual". That is, "one or the other of two".
Romans 8:39Nor height, nor depth, nor any othercreature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]
ουτευψωμαουτεβαθοςουτε τιςκτισιςετεραδυνησεταιημαςχωρισαιαπο τηςαγαπηςτου θεου της εν χριστω ιησου τω κυριω ημων [gnt]
The "any other creature" is the important part of this sequence. The "other" in the Greek means "different".
What might be the meaning of "any other different creature"?
Many English translations either ignore the difference or generalize to an absolute claim. Let us look at a few of the most popular English translations.
Let us go through a reasoning sequence .
43. Nothing 1
Let us start with "you" since everything in from your perspective.
Using Paul's list, let us list everything that cannot separate you from the love of Christ.
44. Nothing 2
Here is most of the list.
Is there anything left that cannot separate you from the love of Christ?
45. Nothing 3
Let us add the "any other (different) creature".
Is there anything left that cannot separate you from the love of Christ?
46. Nothing 4
To cover all bases, let us eliminate not only every other (different) creature but every other (different) thing.
Is there anything left that can separate you from the love of Christ?
Reminder: The invalid claim is that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ".
The English word "nothing" comes from "no thing" (another historical word slide).
47. Singular and plural
In English, the word "you" can be either singular or plural. Greek has different pronouns for each - as do many languages. You are a unique creation (creature) made in the image of God.
48. A horse of a different color
No other (different) creation (creature) can separate you from the love of God (which is in Christ Jesus).
Who does that leave?
Everyone else is "different" than "you".
You are the "same" as "yourself".
Therefore, the only "other (different) creature" who can separate "you" from the love of Christ is "you".
In computer science (and mathematics) a reflexive relationship is something that applies to itself.
Here are some English translations of Romans 8:39. Some generalize Paul's qualified statement (in Greek) to an absolute statement (in English) allowing the claim that "Nothing can separate us from the love of God".
In his Sophistic Refutations where he deals with false reasoning, Aristotle describes the fallacy made in some translations for what Paul said. The one as "you" is obscured by the "many" in the list and the "us" in the verse.
English: In fallacies connected with accident the deception is due to inability to distinguish the identical and the different, the one and the many, and what kinds of predicates have all the same accidents as their subject. (Loeb #400, p. 45)
The Greek word for "different" used by Aristotle is the same word used by Paul for "other (different)". The word for "distinguish" is sometimes translated as "doubt" in the GNT.
A few sentences later, Aristotle provides more detail that is relevant to the mistranslation of changing a "qualified" statement into an "absolute" statement and hoping no one will recognize the "micro" (in Greek) difference. In Paul's case, the "you" is the difference and makes a big difference in meaning.
English: In fallacies connected with the defect in the definition of refutation and with the distinction between a qualified and an absolute statement the deception is due to the minuteness of the difference. (Loeb #400, p. 47)
Some say that "All you need is love" (Beatles song title). Some say "God is love" and "love is god" (converse fallacy). But which god?
Some say we can ignore God's other laws as long as we love others. That we are "better together" and that loving others trumps loving God (but not Trump).
KJV: Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
Hebrew: כי עליך הרגנו כל היום נחשבנו כצאן טבחה׃
Greek: οτι ενεκα σου θανατουμεθα ολην την ημεραν ελογισθημεν ως προβατασφαγης
59. John 15:17-19 Love and hate
John 15:17These things I command you, that ye love one another. [kjv]
15:18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [kjv]
15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. [kjv]
Discuss: [analogies: canaries in a mine, rumple strip]
If the world starts loving you, have you separated yourself from Christ?
Relate this to Psalms 44 and what Paul said in Romans 14:22.
If the world ever stops "killing" you, figuratively or stops trying physically, have you let too much of the world and culture influence your walk?
KJV: If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Greek: ει εκ του κοσμου ητε ο κοσμος αν το ιδιον εφιλει οτι δε εκ του κοσμου ουκ εστε αλλ εγω εξελεξαμην υμας εκ του κοσμου δια τουτο μισει υμας ο κοσμος
64. Matthew 13:3-23 First kingdom parable: sower
The first kingdom parable in Matthew 13 is the "parable of the sower". The explanation provided by Jesus covers three ways that one can be separated from the love of Christ.
seed by the wayside (birds, false teaching and deception)
seed among the stones (pigs, standing in the way, persecution)
seed in the thorns (fish, swimming in worldly cares and concerns)
Each of these is part of a problem-solving scenario. Let us go through an idealized problem solving scenario and then adapt it to this parable. Jesus says to "use our ears" so we must listen for play-on-word meanings in addition to the obvious meaning.
Matthew 13:9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. [kjv]
ο εχωνωταακουετω [gnt]
13:18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. [kjv]
Planting seeds is a way in which to reproduce the essential part of the seed. Using creative and funny techniques, I may have "planted" some "seedy" "artichokes".
Romans 8:38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [kjv]
8:39Nor height, nor depth, nor any othercreature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]
Some pastors will make the bold claim that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". From the Greek text, the only "other (different)""creature" that can separate "you" from the "love of Christ" is "you". So, Paul's list omits "false teaching", "deception", and other things that he covers in following chapters.
Discussion: What might be an ulterior motive as to why a pastor would make such a claim that does not fit the text?