Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 2)

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]

This verse is a connecting phrase between two presentation points (groups of verses) and that uses double-meanings of "above" and "down" for a segue.

This verse is not a "battle cry" or a puffed-up-in-pride "badge of honor". Some pastors (and others) promote this misconception.

Not: "We are ..." as in "God is for us" as in "better together".
Rather: "We are for God" as in "We want God's will".

The "word slide" started with the Latin.

More: Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 1)

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]

τι ουν ερουμεν προς ταυτα ει ο θεος υπερ ημων τις καθ ημων [gnt]

… haec … pro … contra … [v]

Connective paraphrase: Since God is above us (verses before - these things - above in the text), then who (might it be that) is down on us (following verses and chapters - down below in the text)?

The word slide started with the Latin.

"pro" ≈ "for, on behalf of, in front of".
"contra" ≈ "against, contrary".

More: Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 1)

Romans 8: Battle cry separation for the love of Christ (part 2) Some will boldly claim from Romans 8 that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". Three requirements of Aristotle for identifying false reasoning can be accomplished here. It can be demonstrated that this is not what Jesus and Paul are saying. It can be logically argued that this is not what Paul (nor Jesus) is saying. And it can be shown why this deceptive claim appears to be valid.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]

τις ημας χωρισει απο της αγαπης του χριστου θλιψις η στενοχωρια η διωγμος η λιμος η γυμνοτης η κινδυνος η μαχαιρα [gnt]

You will hear pastors who may have not analyzed this verse (and what follows) claim with boldness that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". Not only is that claim misleading but it appears to be inaccurate.

This and following verses lists things, events, etc., that will not separate us from the "love of Christ". If these lists are not "collectively exhaustive", then there are things that are not said here that could separate us from the "love of Christ". Paul will cover some of these in subsequent chapters.

Aristotle, in his Sophistic Refutations (and other works) covers ways that can be used to deceive, how to detect them, etc. He has (at least) three main points for a deception that are relevant here.

One may be able to demonstrate that a conclusion is incorrect.
One may be able to show the logic used is incorrect.
One should then show why the faulty logic appeared to be correct.

For the above problem, we can do all three.

More: Aristotle

$Zeno paradox$ In ancient times, Aristotle relates how Zeno's proof that "motion is impossible", called Zeno's paradox, is flawed since it can easily be demonstrated incorrect by moving.
When Greek philosopher "Διογένης Λαέρτιος," ≈ "Diogenes Laertius" heard the claim, he got up and walked away to demonstrate that the claim was invalid. [math class and limits]

It took over 2,000 years, with the discovery and use of calculus, to be able to actually prove that what Zeno claimed to proved was not valid.

English: For it is possible for a man to show that a false conclusion has been reached without showing on what point it turns, as, for instance, in Zeno's argument that motion is impossible. (Loeb #400, p. 123)

Greek: ἐγχωρεῖ γὰρ ὅτι μὲν ψεῦδος συλλελόγισται δεῖξαί τινα, παρ´ ὃ δὲ μὴ δεῖξαι, οἷον τὸν Ζήνωνος λόγον, ὅτι οὐκ ἔστι κινηθῆναι. [179b]

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]

8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [kjv]

Here is a table. Paul then says "none of these". Do you see a pattern here?

All the things that might separate from love of Christ?
tribulation	distress	persecution	famine	nakedness	peril	sword

The ancient Greek word "στενοχωρέω" ≈ "confined, pressed closely" and means "in a tight spot" and comes from two Greek words.

"στενός" ≈ "narrow, tight" and is the source of the English word "stenography" which is, literally "narrow writing".
"χῶρος" ≈ "space".

The English idiom "between a rock and a hard place" conveys the idea.

Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. [kjv]

κατα σκοπον διωκω εις το βραβειον της ανω κλησεως του θεου εν χριστω ιησου [gnt]

The KJV (King James Version) translates as "press" the ancient Greek word "διώκω" ≈ "pursue" in the sense of "going after" or, in context, "persecuting".

Saying: One person's "terrorist" is another person's "freedom fighter".
Analogy: Star Wars and Luke Skywalker.

Could Paul be hinting that he is now "persecuting" the "bishops", as false teachers, by pointing out the "truth" for the "high calling" of "Christ"?

More: Philippians 3:15-17 towards the mark

Philippians 3:6

All

KJV: Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Greek: κατα ζηλον ζηλος διωκων την εκκλησιαν κατα δικαιοσυνην την εν νομω γενομενος αμεμπτος

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]

Some pastors will claim with boldness that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". A demonstration that refutes the conclusion is as follows.

If "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ", then we can do anything we want, any time we want, since "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". This is a direct implication of the claim. Otherwise, the claim is not really what it claims to be.

Let us now proceed to analyze the claim.

Here are the steps in the logic.

Neither "A" nor "B" can stop us.

In addition, neither "C" nor "D" can stop us.

In addition, neither "E" nor "F" can stop us.

Therefore, the conclusion is that "Nothing can stop us!".

Do you see a flaw in the logic?

Did I forget to tell you that "G" or "H" (and perhaps other things such is "I", "J", "K", etc.) can stop us?

Who does this bring to mind?

sales people
politicians

Who else does this bring to mind?

Romans 8:35

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KJV: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Greek: τις ημας χωρισει απο της αγαπης του χριστου θλιψις η στενοχωρια η διωγμος η λιμος η γυμνοτης η κινδυνος η μαχαιρα

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [kjv]

καθως γεγραπται οτι ενεκεν σου θανατουμεθα ολην την ημεραν ελογισθημεν ως προβατα σφαγης [gnt]

Psalms 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. [kjv]

οτι ενεκα σου θανατουμεθα ολην την ημεραν ελογισθημεν ως προβατα σφαγης [lxx]

Discuss: Is this "killed" a physical or figurative "killing"?
Take care of your body as if you were going to live forever; and take care of your soul as if you were going to die tomorrow. Saint Augustine (Early Christian father)

More: Augustine of Hippo

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [kjv]

αλλ εν τουτοις πασιν υπερνικωμεν δια του αγαπησαντος ημας [gnt]

Here, the "all" is quantified directly in the verse itself. Often, one needs to look outside the verse at the context to determine a proper meaning of "all".

The ancient Greek word "ὑπερνικάω" ≈ "conqueror" uses the Greek prefix for "above". It is made up (by Paul) of two words.

The ancient Greek word "ὑπέρ" ≈ "above, over" as in English words starting with "hyper-".
The ancient Greek word "νικάω" ≈ "win, conquer" and is the source of the English word "Nike" as in the name of the shoe company.

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [kjv]

αλλ εν τουτοις πασιν υπερνικωμεν δια του αγαπησαντος ημας [gnt]

The ancient Greek word "ὑπερνικάω" ≈ "conqueror" appears only here in the GNT (Greek New Testament) and not in the LXX (Septuagint).

When a word is used only once and is not common in other Greek texts, Paul may have a specific meaning in mind.

*G5245 *1 ὑπερνικάω (hoop-er-nik-ah'-o) : from G5228 and G3528; to vanquish beyond, i.e. gain a decisive victory:--more than conquer.

The secondary meaning by Paul appears to be that of a "victory from above" by God and not by us. Some will (inappropriately) associate this "conqueror" word with the battle cry slogan in verse 31.

8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [kjv]

Romans 8:37

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KJV: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Greek: αλλ εν τουτοις πασιν υπερνικωμεν δια του αγαπησαντος ημας

*G5245 *1 ὑπερνικάω (hoop-er-nik-ah'-o) : from G5228 and G3528; to vanquish beyond, i.e. gain a decisive victory:--more than conquer.

Usage

All

υπερνικωμεν

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

*G5245 *1 ὑπερνικάω (hoop-er-nik-ah'-o) : from G5228 and G3528; to vanquish beyond, i.e. gain a decisive victory:--more than conquer.

Words: υπερνικωμεν

Romans 8:36

All

KJV: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Greek: καθως γεγραπται οτι ενεκα ενεκεν σου θανατουμεθα ολην την ημεραν ελογισθημεν ως προβατα σφαγης

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [kjv]

τω δε θεω χαρις τω διδοντι ημιν το νικος δια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου [gnt]

Eugene Bartlett (1885-1941) wrote the words and music to the hymn "Victory in Jesus". The last verse of the song "Victory in Jesus" talks about a "mansion".

Born in Missouri, moved to Arkansas, music store business
In 1939, at age 54, he suffered a stroke, then wrote "Victory in Jesus".

More: Luke 2:7 no room at the inn

More: Song: Victory in Jesus

I heard an old, old story,

how a Savior came from glory, How He gave His life on Calvary,

to save a wretch like me; I heard about His groaning,

of His precious blood's atoning, Then I repented of my sins,

and won the victory.

O victory in Jesus,

my Savior, forever. He sought me and bought me,

with His redeeming blood; He loved me ere I knew Him,

and all my love is due Him, He plunged me to victory,

beneath the cleansing flood.

I heard about a mansion,

he has built for me in glory. And I heard about the streets of gold,

crystal sea

About the angels singing,

and the old redemption story, And some sweet day I'll sing up there

the song of victory.

O victory in Jesus,

my Savior, forever. He sought me and bought me,

with His redeeming blood; He loved me ere I knew Him,

and all my love is due Him, He plunged me to victory,

beneath the cleansing flood.

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [kjv]

αλλ εν τουτοις πασιν υπερνικωμεν δια του αγαπησαντος ημας [gnt]

What are "all these things" that could separate us from the "love of Christ"? Here is the list from two verses earlier. Is this list "collectively exhaustive" (include all possibilities)?

All the things that might separate from love of Christ?
tribulation	distress	persecution	famine	nakedness	peril	sword

Discuss: Into what categories in the above table do deception and false teaching fit? Paul will go on to, in future verses and chapters, cover some of these possibilities.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [kjv]

8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [kjv]

αλλ εν τουτοις πασιν υπερνικωμεν δια του αγαπησαντος ημας [gnt]

Some things that can separate are "false teaching" and "deception".

Discuss: Why might a pastor not want to point this out but instead change the meaning to the absolute statement "Nothing can separate from the love of Christ"?

At the request of the disciples, Jesus provides the code-word meaning of the "birds" or "fowls" as those of the "wicked one". This happens when one does "not understand" as in "deception" (including self-deception).

Matthew 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: [kjv]

13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [kjv]

The "catcheth away" is related to the word for "rapture". The KJV translates as "evil" or "wicked" the Greek word that means "oppression" or "oppressor".

More: Matthew 6: The missing part worked out for the birds

More: Matthew 10: 28-31 Taking care of the sparrows

More: Crying wolf for the search and seizure of the rapture

More: Overly burdened in the cares and concerns of evil

More: Evil training is toilsome work: no pain no gain

Matthew 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: [kjv]

και εν τω σπειρειν αυτον α μεν επεσεν παρα την οδον και ελθοντα τα πετεινα κατεφαγεν αυτα [gnt]

παντος ακουοντος τον λογον της βασιλειας και μη συνιεντος ερχεται ο πονηρος και αρπαζει το εσπαρμενον εν τη καρδια αυτου ουτος εστιν ο παρα την οδον σπαρεις [gnt]

The Greek for "snatch away" is the word used for "rapture" and the source of the English word "harpoon". It is also used as "ravenous" in terms of "wolves".

The "seed" that was "snatched away" in parable 1 appears to have been deposited (by the "birds") in parable 2 as "weeds" and then grows into a "tree" in parable 3 so that those "birds" have a place to make their "nests".

More: Matthew 12:26-29 Snatching the raptured goods from the strong man

More: Exodus 18: Hierarchy as a man-made tree structure

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [kjv]

και μη φοβεισθε απο των αποκτεινοντων το σωμα την δε ψυχην μη δυναμενων αποκτειναι φοβεισθε δε μαλλον τον δυναμενον και ψυχην και σωμα απολεσαι εν γεεννη [gnt]

Jesus tells us who we should "fear" and it is not "fear" about the cares and concerns of this world. The most dangerous attacks are not from the outside but from the inside and involve deception.

One cannot "destroy the soul" by "killing" the body is in persecution (e.g., by the Roman administrations). The primary way to "destroy the soul" is through deception so that you "sell yourself out" or are "sold out".

Jesus provides an example in the next verse.

More: The fear deception: focus on friends rather than Jesus

Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. [kjv]

ουχι δυο στρουθια ασσαριου πωλειται και εν εξ αυτων ου πεσειται επι την γην ανευ του πατρος υμων [gnt]

Discuss:

How might "sparrows" (birds of the evil one) deceive to "destroy the soul" in order to achieve "earthly gain" (money) by "selling out"?
Do "sparrows" succeed because those being deceived do not "understand"? This is what Jesus says of the birds in the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13.
Have those "deceived" separated themselves from the love of Christ?

More: Matthew 10: 28-31 Taking care of the sparrows

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [kjv]

πεπεισμαι γαρ οτι ουτε θανατος ουτε ζωη ουτε αγγελοι ουτε αρχαι ουτε ενεστωτα ουτε μελλοντα ουτε δυναμεις [gnt]

The "persuaded" means that this is not a "proof" but an "opinion" based on various other factors. Paul continues these factors in the next verse.

The "powers" is not in some Greek manuscripts.

Romans 8:38

All

KJV: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Greek: πεπεισμαι γαρ οτι ουτε θανατος ουτε ζωη ουτε αγγελοι ουτε αρχαι ουτε δυναμεις ουτε ενεστωτα ουτε μελλοντα ουτε δυναμεις

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]

ουτε υψωμα ουτε βαθος ουτε τις κτισις ετερα δυνησεται ημας χωρισαι απο της αγαπης του θεου της εν χριστω ιησου τω κυριω ημων [gnt]

Here we see, in English, Paul's repetition of the idea of "above" and "below" using "height" and "depth".

The "other" in Greek means "different" as in "other creature" that is a "different creature". What type of "creature" or "creation" might this "other creature" be?

Romans 8:39

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KJV: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Greek: ουτε υψωμα ουτε βαθος ουτε τις κτισις ετερα δυνησεται ημας χωρισαι απο της αγαπης του θεου της εν χριστω ιησου τω κυριω ημων

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [kjv]

πεπεισμαι γαρ οτι ουτε θανατος ουτε ζωη ουτε αγγελοι ουτε αρχαι ουτε ενεστωτα ουτε μελλοντα ουτε δυναμεις [gnt]

8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]

Hint: The "any other creature" is the important part of this sequence.

Persuasive opinion
death	life
angels	powers of evil
things present	things to come
height	depth
any other ‑	(different) creature

Does this list include every possibility? Is it "collectively exhaustive"?

The "other" in the Greek is "other (different)" and not "other (similar)".

Discuss: Into what categories in the above table do deception and false teaching fit? What other categories might not be in the above table?

Discuss: Why might a pastor not want to point this out but instead change the meaning to the absolute statement "Nothing can separate from the love of God"?

The English word "other" can mean something that is similar or is different.

English	Greek	Greek
other	other (similar)	άλλος
other	other (different)	έτερος

Greek has two words for "other". One means "other (similar)" and one means "other (different)".

*G243 *155 ἄλλος (al'-los) : a primary word; "else," i.e. different (in many applications):--more, one (another), (an-, some an-)other(-s, -wise).

The ancient Greek word "ἄλλος" ≈ "other - similar" and is related to the English word "else".

*G2087 *99 ἕτερος (het'-er-os) : of uncertain affinity; (an-, the) other or different:--altered, else, next (day), one, (an-)other, some, strange.

The ancient Greek word "ἕτερος" ≈ "other - different" and is related to the English word "asunder" and is the prefix of English words such as "heterosexual". That is, "one or the other of two".

More: Other similar differences

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]

The "any other creature" is the important part of this sequence. The "other" in the Greek means "different".

What might be the meaning of "any other different creature"?

Many English translations either ignore the difference or generalize to an absolute claim. Let us look at a few of the most popular English translations.

Let us go through a reasoning sequence .

Let us start with "you" since everything in from your perspective.

Using Paul's list, let us list everything that cannot separate you from the love of Christ.

Here is most of the list.

Is there anything left that cannot separate you from the love of Christ?

Let us add the "any other (different) creature".

Is there anything left that cannot separate you from the love of Christ?

To cover all bases, let us eliminate not only every other (different) creature but every other (different) thing.
Is there anything left that can separate you from the love of Christ?

Reminder: The invalid claim is that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ".

The English word "nothing" comes from "no thing" (another historical word slide).

In English, the word "you" can be either singular or plural. Greek has different pronouns for each - as do many languages. You are a unique creation (creature) made in the image of God.

No other (different) creation (creature) can separate you from the love of God (which is in Christ Jesus).

Who does that leave?

Against the flow - fish 2

Everyone else is "different" than "you".
You are the "same" as "yourself".

Therefore, the only "other (different) creature" who can separate "you" from the love of Christ is "you".
In computer science (and mathematics) a reflexive relationship is something that applies to itself.

More: Reflexive properties

More: Reflexive relationships in the Bible

Here are some English translations of Romans 8:39. Some generalize Paul's qualified statement (in Greek) to an absolute statement (in English) allowing the claim that "Nothing can separate us from the love of God".

Absolute statements:

"... indeed, nothing in all creation ..." NLT (New Living Translation)
"... there is nothing in all creation ..." Good News Translation

Qualified statements:

"... nor anything else in all creation ..." NIV (New International Version), ESV (English Standard Version), NRSV (New Revised Standard Version)
"... nor any other created thing ..." NASB (New American Standard Bible)
"... nor any other creature ..." KJV, ASV (American Standard Version), DRB (Douay-Rheims Bible)

In his Sophistic Refutations where he deals with false reasoning, Aristotle describes the fallacy made in some translations for what Paul said. The one as "you" is obscured by the "many" in the list and the "us" in the verse.

English: In fallacies connected with accident the deception is due to inability to distinguish the identical and the different, the one and the many, and what kinds of predicates have all the same accidents as their subject. (Loeb #400, p. 45)

Greek: Τῶν δὲ παρὰ τὸ συμβεβηκὸς διὰ τὸ μὴ δύνασθαι διακρίνειν τὸ ταὐτὸν καὶ τὸ ἕτερον, καὶ ἓν καὶ πολλά, μηδὲ τοῖς ποίοις τῶν κατηγορημάτων πάντα ταὐτὰ καὶ τῷ πράγματι συμβέβηκεν. [189b]

The Greek word for "different" used by Aristotle is the same word used by Paul for "other (different)". The word for "distinguish" is sometimes translated as "doubt" in the GNT.

More: Aristotle

More: Discerning doubts about doubts

A few sentences later, Aristotle provides more detail that is relevant to the mistranslation of changing a "qualified" statement into an "absolute" statement and hoping no one will recognize the "micro" (in Greek) difference. In Paul's case, the "you" is the difference and makes a big difference in meaning.

English: In fallacies connected with the defect in the definition of refutation and with the distinction between a qualified and an absolute statement the deception is due to the minuteness of the difference. (Loeb #400, p. 47)

Greek: Τῶν δὲ παρὰ τὴν ἔλλειψιν τοῦ λόγου καὶ τῶν παρὰ τὸ πῂ καὶ ἁπλῶς ἐν τῷ παρὰ μικρὸν ἡ ἀπάτη· ὡς γὰρ οὐδὲν προσσημαῖνον τὸ τὶ ἢ πῂ ἢ τὸ πὼς ἢ τὸ νῦν καθόλου συγχωροῦμεν. [189b]

Some say that "All you need is love" (Beatles song title). Some say "God is love" and "love is god" (converse fallacy). But which god?

Some say we can ignore God's other laws as long as we love others. That we are "better together" and that loving others trumps loving God (but not Trump).

More: Converse fallacy: If A then B does not mean If B then A

More: 2 Peter 2:1-22 Déjà vu all over again

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]

This is the end of Romans 8. Romans 9 continues with Paul's issues with some of the beliefs and ideas of the Jews that are counter to Christ.

Along the way, Paul points out areas of "deception" , "false teaching", etc., that can separate "you" from the "love of Christ".

Details are left as a future topic.

More: Romans 16 A belly-ache pun on useful Christ-like words

Psalms 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death. [kjv]

οτι εταπεινωσας ημας εν τοπω κακωσεως και επεκαλυψεν ημας σκια θανατου [lxx]

44:20 If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god; [kjv]

44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart. [kjv]

44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. [kjv]

οτι ενεκα σου θανατουμεθα ολην την ημεραν ελογισθημεν ως προβατα σφαγης [lxx]

Paul refers to Psalms 44:22. The verses preceding provide one way one can be separated from the "love of Christ".

Are these ways "things" as in "physical things"?

Psalms 44:19

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KJV: Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death.

Hebrew: כי דכיתנו במקום תנים ותכס עלינו בצלמות׃

Greek: οτι εταπεινωσας ημας εν τοπω κακωσεως και επεκαλυψεν ημας σκια θανατου

Psalms 44:20

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KJV: If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god;

Hebrew: אם שכחנו שם אלהינו ונפרש כפינו לאל זר׃

Greek: ει επελαθομεθα του ονοματος του θεου ημων και ει διεπετασαμεν χειρας ημων προς θεον αλλοτριον

Psalms 44:21

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KJV: Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Hebrew: הלא אלהים יחקר זאת כי הוא ידע תעלמות לב׃

Greek: ουχι ο θεος εκζητησει ταυτα αυτος γαρ γινωσκει τα κρυφια της καρδιας

Psalms 44:22

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KJV: Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Hebrew: כי עליך הרגנו כל היום נחשבנו כצאן טבחה׃

Greek: οτι ενεκα σου θανατουμεθα ολην την ημεραν ελογισθημεν ως προβατα σφαγης

John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. [kjv]

15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [kjv]

15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. [kjv]

Discuss: [analogies: canaries in a mine, rumple strip]

If the world starts loving you, have you separated yourself from Christ?
Relate this to Psalms 44 and what Paul said in Romans 14:22.

If the world ever stops "killing" you, figuratively or stops trying physically, have you let too much of the world and culture influence your walk?

John 7:7

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KJV: The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Greek: ου δυναται ο κοσμος μισειν υμας εμε δε μισει οτι εγω μαρτυρω περι αυτου οτι τα εργα αυτου πονηρα εστιν

John 15:17

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KJV: These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Greek: ταυτα εντελλομαι υμιν ινα αγαπατε αλληλους

John 15:18

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KJV: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Greek: ει ο κοσμος υμας μισει γινωσκετε οτι εμε πρωτον υμων μεμισηκεν

John 15:19

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KJV: If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Greek: ει εκ του κοσμου ητε ο κοσμος αν το ιδιον εφιλει οτι δε εκ του κοσμου ουκ εστε αλλ εγω εξελεξαμην υμας εκ του κοσμου δια τουτο μισει υμας ο κοσμος

The first kingdom parable in Matthew 13 is the "parable of the sower". The explanation provided by Jesus covers three ways that one can be separated from the love of Christ.

seed by the wayside (birds, false teaching and deception)
seed among the stones (pigs, standing in the way, persecution)
seed in the thorns (fish, swimming in worldly cares and concerns)

Each of these is part of a problem-solving scenario. Let us go through an idealized problem solving scenario and then adapt it to this parable. Jesus says to "use our ears" so we must listen for play-on-word meanings in addition to the obvious meaning.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. [kjv]

13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. [kjv]

Planting seeds is a way in which to reproduce the essential part of the seed. Using creative and funny techniques, I may have "planted" some "seedy" "artichokes".

More: Genesis 1: A seed within itself, the chicken or the egg

More: Matthew 13: First kingdom parable: sower

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Here is a build summary of the steps.

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Here is a build summary of the steps.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [kjv]

8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [kjv]

Some pastors will make the bold claim that "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ". From the Greek text, the only "other (different)" "creature" that can separate "you" from the "love of Christ" is "you". So, Paul's list omits "false teaching", "deception", and other things that he covers in following chapters.

Discussion: What might be an ulterior motive as to why a pastor would make such a claim that does not fit the text?