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Trinitarianism and Modalism
1. Trinitarianism and Modalism
This content is under construction. It can be hard to sift through the various thoughts on the subject.
This is a huge topic so this discussion will only scratch the surface (of the black box).
Note that showing that bad logic is used to justify a position does not make the position false.
2. Trinitarianism and Modalism
The doctrine of "
Modalism" maintains that the Trinity is
one person in
three natures (or modes or aspects).
The doctrine of "
Trinitarianism" maintains that the Trinity is "
three persons" in "
one nature".
Are there other doctrines or views of the Trinity?
Let us investigate using, as much as possible, only scripture. Some people get upset with just the mention of asking questions about these views.
3. Questions and answers
I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.
Richard Feynman (American theoretical physicist)
4. Background
In order to discuss the similarities and differences of the Trinitarian view and the Modalist view, we need some background.
Black boxes
Referential transparency
Graph theory
OOP = Object Oriented Programming
5. Black box models
1 Black box
2 White box
3 Glass box
A black box model only shows the input and/or output of the model, not the inner workings. A white box or glass box model allows the internals to be known.
An example of a black box model is quantum mechanics. How it works (functionally) is very well understood but why it works is unknown.
6. Referential transparency
Mathematical functions can be considered black boxes that, given an
input, provide an
output. This is much like a computer program. In a
black box function, you cannot see inside. You should not "
judge" or "
separate" based on the internal workings of the box - which you cannot see nor fully understand. Instead, you should "
judge" or "
separate" based on the external behavior of the box.
The principle of
referential transparency can be stated as follows.
If f(x) is equal to g(x) for all x in the domain of concern, then function f is equal to function g.
That is, if
f and
g are provided input
x and both produce output
y, for the domain of concern they can be considered the same.
The Greek word for "
judge" or "
separate" is related to the Greek word for "
barley".
7. Graphs and graph theory
Graph theory is a mathematical and computer science area that has to do with the properties and algorithms for processing a graph of nodes (or vertices) and edges (or arcs) connecting those nodes (vertices).
The size and importance of nodes and edges may or may not be displayed in a diagram of the graph because nodes can be placed anywhere. It is the type of node and the relationships between nodes that is important.
8. Classes and objects
An understanding of classes and objects is essential to understanding object-oriented concepts.
A class is a general idea of something that relates to a Platonic form. It is a template for how to make instances of objects.
An instance is a specific occurrence of a general idea.
An object is an instance of a class that relates more the Aristotelian form. An object has specific properties, methods, and reacts to or creates events.
9. The baby class and object
A baby class consists of a general idea of a baby.
A baby object is a specific baby, created by two people as an instance of a baby class.
A baby has properties such as height, weight, skin color, eye color, etc.
Baby methods include the touch method, the see method, the hear method, the feed method, etc.
A baby can create events such as the cry event, the poop event, the hunger event, etc. These events require handling from an outside source.
10. Views
Let us return to the similarities and differences of the
Trinitarian view and the
Modalist view, we need some background.
The etymology and history of the words used for the Trinity are interesting but beyond the current discussion.
 |
Details are left as a future topic.
|
We start with an overview of the Trinity.
11. Trinitarianism
Trinitarianism is the Christian doctrine that God exists as three persons (Greek hypostases) but is one being. The persons are understood to exist as God the Father, God the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, each of them having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures. Wikipedia. (as of 2022-07-08)
12. Modalism
Modalistic Monarchianism, also known as Modalism or Oneness Christology, is a Christian theology upholding the oneness of God as well as the divinity of Jesus; as a form of Monarchianism. Wikipedia. (as of 2022-07-09)
Modalsm is sometimes called Sabbellianism who was one of the first to describe this view of the Trinity. In modern times, the Oneness Pentecostals movement has views on the Trinity similar to Modalism.
For this discussion, one must be careful not to conflate any heresy, real or imagined, in the views of a group with the Modalist views of that group.
13. Table
Here is a table using object-oriented principles from programming.
| Doctrine of the Trinity |
| Trinitarianism |
Modalism |
| Person as an object |
| 3 persons |
1 person |
| Nature as a class |
| 1 nature |
3 natures |
|
 |
A class is a general idea about something such as the "nature" of something.
An object is an instance of a class such as a "person".
14. Trinity
Let us look briefly at each of the parts of the "Trinity".
15. God the Father
God the Father is taken as the Creator God of the Bible as found in Genesis and thereafter.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [kjv]
εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος τον ουρανον και την γην [lxx]
Note that God did not create order out of existing chaos. That is a Greek myth. God created time and space and matter and then created order.
16. Genesis 1:1
KJV: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Hebrew: בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ׃
Greek: εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος τον ουρανον και την γην
17. God the Son
God the Son is the incarnate Jesus the Christ of Nazareth as the Messiah as accepted by Christian doctrine but not Jewish doctrine. Here we are only interested in Christian doctrine. Jesus is speaking in John 10:30.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. [kjv]
What exactly does "
one" mean?
Jesus and the Father are the same "person".
Jesus and the Father have the same "nature".
Jesus and the Father are in agreement.
Something else.
18. John 10:30
KJV: I and my Father are one.
Greek: εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν
19. Greater than all
The verse before this one provides some clarification.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [kjv]
ο πατηρ μου ο δεδωκεν μοι παντων μειζον εστιν και ουδεις δυναται αρπαζειν εκ της χειρος του πατρος [gnt]
The "
Father" is "
greater than all". The "
no man" in the Greek is "
no one".
Discuss: Is the "
Father" greater than the "
Son"?
20. John 10:29
KJV: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Greek: ο πατηρ μου ος ο δεδωκεν μοι μειζων παντων μειζον εστιν και ουδεις δυναται αρπαζειν εκ της χειρος του πατρος μου
21. Jesus the Son
One can make the case that Jesus is God as stated by Jesus in the Gospels. Some make the case that this is not so. For the sake of argument we will assume that Jesus is God in human form (person, nature, etc.).
22. Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the "
helper" or "
advocate" that Jesus promised at the Last Supper.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [kjv]
ο δε παρακλητος το πνευμα το αγιον ο πεμψει ο πατηρ εν τω ονοματι μου εκεινος υμας διδαξει παντα και υπομνησει υμας παντα α ειπον υμιν εγω [gnt]
The Holy Spirit became manifest at Pentecost in Acts 2 and thereafter.
23. John 14:26
KJV: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Greek: ο δε παρακλητος το πνευμα το αγιον ο πεμψει ο πατηρ εν τω ονοματι μου εκεινος υμας διδαξει παντα και υπομνησει υμας παντα α ειπον υμιν εγω
24. Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is often portrayed as a dove or pigeon since they are the same bird. Many languages have only one word for this bird. English has two.
The arguments used to justify or discredit Trinitarianism and/or Modalsm can be compared to the arguments that a dove and a pigeon are different birds. One often sees what they want to see.
25. Nicodemus
In John 3, Jesus tells Nicodemus the following.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. [kjv]
το πνευμα οπου θελει πνει και την φωνην αυτου ακουεις αλλ ουκ οιδας ποθεν ερχεται και που υπαγει ουτως εστιν πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του πνευματος [gnt]
The "
Holy Spirit" had not yet been sent. What "
Spirit" is this that is mentioned by Jesus?
The "
wind" is the Greek word for "
spirit". Might a Trinitarian or other view have influenced not translating "
wind" as "
spirit"?
26. John 3:8
KJV: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Greek: το πνευμα οπου θελει πνει και την φωνην αυτου ακουεις αλλ ουκ οιδας ποθεν ερχεται και που υπαγει ουτως εστιν πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του πνευματος
27. John
In 1 John 2:22, John mentions the "
Father" and the "
Son".
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [kjv]
τις εστιν ο ψευστης ει μη ο αρνουμενος οτι ιησους ουκ εστιν ο χριστος ουτος εστιν ο αντιχριστος ο αρνουμενος τον πατερα και τον υιον [gnt]
Why might John not have included the "
Holy Spirit"?
28. 1 John 2:22
KJV: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Greek: τις εστιν ο ψευστης ει μη ο αρνουμενος οτι ιησους ουκ εστιν ο χριστος ουτος εστιν ο αντιχριστος ο αρνουμενος τον πατερα και τον υιον
29. John
Later in 1 John, John mentions "
Jesus" and "
God" but not the "
Holy Spirit". He does mention the "
spirit of antichrist".
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. [kjv]
και παν πνευμα ο μη ομολογει τον ιησουν εκ του θεου ουκ εστιν και τουτο εστιν το του αντιχριστου ο ακηκοατε οτι ερχεται και νυν εν τω κοσμω εστιν ηδη [gnt]
How might the "
spirit of antichrist" differ from the "
Holy Spirit"?
Note that the "
spirit" in "
spirit of antichrist" is inferred in the
KJV (King James Version) from the pronoun used in the Greek.
30. 1 John 4:3
KJV: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Greek: και παν πνευμα ο μη ομολογει τον ιησουν χριστον εν σαρκι εληλυθοτα εκ του θεου ουκ εστιν και τουτο εστιν το του αντιχριστου ο ακηκοατε οτι ερχεται και νυν εν τω κοσμω εστιν ηδη
31. Holy Spirit
Is there anywhere in scripture to support the idea that the Holy Spirit is God? Or is that an assumption?
Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit as a "helper". If Jesus had said that he would send an "angel" to each and every person as a personal "helper" or "advocate" would each and every "angel" thus sent qualify as God? Discuss.
32. Hymn
For hymns that or allude to the Trinity, see the following.
Song: Come Thou Almighty King
Song: Angels from the realms of glory (last verse)
Song: Love divine, all loves excelling (verse structure)
Song: Holy, Holy, Holy.
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to thee;
holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty,
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!
33. Trinitarian diagram
A common Trinitarian diagram of the Trinity has "
is not" edges along the outside to emphasis that each "
person" is different but that they share a common "
God" nature.
One could remove the "
is not" edges under the assumption that anything not connected as "
is" is a "
is not".
34. Topology
Topology allows a graph to be picked up by a node and the connections and nodes moved around without disturbing any of the relationships.
Since there are no cycles in the graph, any node can be chosen to make the graph a rooted tree. So the graph can be rearranged with the "
GOD" node at the top, making it a rooted tree, and the leaf nodes all at the same level at the bottom.
35. Classes and objects
The diagram is now in a form that is familiar to programmers in
OOP. There is a "
class" or "
nature" node at the top and "
object" or "
person" nodes from the root node.
Note: In
OOP, a class could be made for each of "
Son", "
Holy Spirit" and "
Father" and then on object for each made that inherits methods, properties, etc., from the root class "
GOD". The intermediate class is omitted for this discussion.
36. Rearrange the leaves
For future purposes, the leaves will be reordered (using topology considerations).
In
OOP any object with access to a class can construct an object of that class. Thus, the "
Father" object could create a "
Son" object that could be considered as proceeding from the "
Father".
37. Disclaimer
Disclaimer: This argument is not to put the Trinity as classes and/or objects in programming. The point is that ideas like this are used all the time in programming.
38. Trinitarian rooted tree
In the
OOP analogy, the following hold.
The node "
GOD" is the base class or "
nature" from which the following are derived.
The node "
Jesus" is a descendant object or "
person".
The node "
Holy Spirit" is a descendant object or "
person".
The node "
Father" is a descendant object or "
person".
All are distinct "
persons" or "
objects" sharing a common "
GOD" "
nature" or "
class".
39. Modalism
The Modalist view can now be expressed by switching "
person" or "
object" with "
nature" or "
class".
The
OOP analogy no longer fits the programmer model but the analogy does fit.
40. Comparison
One can now compare the similarities and differences between the Trinitarian view and the Modalist view.
Do we know the exact workings of each aspect of the Trinity and their exact relationship?
41. Black box model for the Trinity
Some people confuse a "
dimension" as a way to look at something with a "
mode" as a heresy. For those, each "
view" from one side of the box may help.
Does it make any difference in practice if we know the exact nature and inner workings of each aspect of the Trinity?
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. [kjv]
Each side uses scripture to justify their view. What do we know?
42. 1 Corinthians 13:12
KJV: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Greek: βλεπομεν γαρ αρτι δι εσοπτρου εν αινιγματι τοτε δε προσωπον προς προσωπον αρτι γινωσκω εκ μερους τοτε δε επιγνωσομαι καθως και επεγνωσθην
43. Think outside the box
In the conventional black box model, one is outside the box trying to determine what is inside the box.
For the problem of the Trinity, we are actually inside the box of time and space and want to see outside the box.
This requires thinking outside the box.
Unfortunately, we cannot see outside the box. Paul says we can see "
darkly" if at all.
44. Inside and outside the box
Sometimes one is trying to see inside the box but one is inside the box and needs the see or think outside the box.
A Far Side cartoon has a man trying to get a frog in the night in the swamp. He says, "
See, Frank? Keep the light in their eyes and you can bag them without any trouble at all". Franks is looking up in the sky at a light from above.
Do you see the (conceptual) box of self-reference?
45. Build comparison
1 Trinity diagram
2 Trinity without outer edges
3 Trinity adjusted vertical
4 Trinity adjusted horizontal
5 Trinitarian rooted tree
6 Modalism rooted tree
7 Black box view
Here is a build sequence to compare the progression.
46. Black box
Let us return to the black box idea but use a cube. We cannot see inside the box but can see only what is exposed. That is, the "
Father", "
Son" and "
Holy Spirit" (or just "
Spirit").
Remember, we are inside the box (time and space as we know it) looking out to what we can see of "
GOD" who is outside of time and space (as we know it).
47. Discuss
What we need to do might be summarized as follows.
Love God (with all our heart, etc.)
Love neighbor (as ourself)
Discuss: From our point of view, what difference does it make in our lives and in what we are to be doing if we think using the following views?
Trinitarian model
Modalist model
some other model (including none)
What impact does our view of the Trinity have on what we should be doing? This is where the idea of referential transparency can be useful.
48. Laws
Jesus affirms that the two most important laws are the following.
Love your God.
Love your neighbor (as yourself).
Having the "
correct" view of the Trinity, which cannot be known with certainty, may not really be relevant.
49. Dimensions
A dimension in math and science is a way of looking at something. The three space dimensions of length, width and height are common spatial dimensions.
A Hilbert space in mathematics (named for David Hilbert) can have an infinite number of dimensions.
50. Physical cubes
Some people confuse dimensions with what modalists call "
modes" (and provides the basis for the name of Modalism).
A physical cube, such as a die with six sides, has three dimensions. One can look at any side to see that view.
The overly simplistic modal view of a cube is that since we see each side, and there is only one physical cube, those views must be of the same cube.
51. Logical cubes
Instead of a physical cube, one should think of a logical cube as a conceptual black box with a limited view of what is inside.
Keep in mind that we are inside the box trying to look outside the box.
That outside perspective is found, for example, in Psalms 2 and in Job.
52. Clover
According to legend, Saint Patrick used the shamrock, or
clover, to explain the Trinity to those he was trying to convert.
One view: The three leaves stand for Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Another view: The three leaves stand for faith, hope and love.
From a Trinitarian point of view, each leaf is separate but connected.
53. State machines
What the Modalist call "
modes" can be thought of in computer science terms as a
FSM (Finite State Machine). A
FSM has a finite number of states and the machine can only be in one state at a time. There is only one machine for a given
FSM.
54. Finite state machine for binary numbers
Here is a
FSM = Finite State Machine that recognizes valid binary numbers.
The set of states is {Null,Odd,Even}.
The set of input values is {0,1}.
The initial state is Null.
The set of final states is {Even}.
The state is whether the binary number thus far recognized is "
odd" or "
even".
55. Traffic light
A common
FSM is a (typical) traffic light. For a given traffic light there are three possible states.
"Red" on, others off.
"Amber" on, others off.
"Green" on, others off.
For most people, "
Red" means "
Stop", "
Green" means "
Go" and "
Amber" means slow for a stop as in "
Wait". For some, "
Amber" means go faster.
56. Timesharing
Modalists, and Trinitarians when critiquing Modalist views, argue that in Modalism, God only be in one form at any one time.
The timesharing principle in computer systems allows one processor to time-slice what it is doing to appear as if it is doing more than one thing at any one time.
Since we live in a digital world, discovered as quantum mechanics in the early 20th century, it is conceptually possible that a God outside of time and space could time-slice what is happening, in the Modalist view, to appear to have more than one form at any point in our time.
57. Group think
Each group will adopt a certain viewpoint. All members must accept that viewpoint.
What happens if a group member starts to research an issue and find that the group viewpoint may not be the best?
That is, a firm "
yes" becomes a qualified "
yes?".
58. Group think
That group member now suggests "
no".
All group members now insist that that group member change their view to the group's view with an emphatic "
yes!".
How often does this happen in human organizations?
59. Nick at night
60. John 7:50
KJV: Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them, )
Greek: λεγει νικοδημος προς αυτους ο ελθων νυκτος προς αυτον προτερον εις ων εξ αυτων
61. John 7:51
KJV: Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
Greek: μη ο νομος ημων κρινει τον ανθρωπον εαν μη ακουση πρωτον παρ αυτου προτερον και γνω τι ποιει
62. John 7:52
KJV: They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
Greek: απεκριθησαν και ειπον ειπαν αυτω μη και συ εκ της γαλιλαιας ει ερευνησον εραυνησον και ιδε οτι προφητης εκ της γαλιλαιας προφητης ουκ εγηγερται εγειρεται
63. Group think
This same group think happens between the opposing views of Trinitarianism and Modalism.
Each side persecutes any view from the opposite side. This will happen even when the person doing the persecuting is just repeating ideas without any real knowledge of the issues, the logic, the reality. etc.
64. Dilbert and ignorance
Scott Adams, creator of the cartoon series (and books) Dilbert (and related characters), uses ignorance as one (among many) themes in his humor. One book (of cartoons) is entitled "
When did ignorance become a point of view?".
A related fallacy is the "
appeal to ignorance " fallacy.
A proposition not yet proven false is true.
A proposition not yet proven true is false.
65. Persecution
This is especially telling since it is not clear that the exact workings of the black box can be determined with certainty.
And it appears to be the case that knowing the exact workings inside the box may not be important in terms of the "
eternal security" of an individual.
66. New requirements
Any new requirement that is made mandatory, such as might be added through progressive revelation, means that in all past history, those other people are out of luck. They did not believe the correct things.
And, by a future induction, if some newer idea comes along, are you out of luck?
67. Discuss
Discuss: Would Jesus have left certain requirements unstated until a future time?
Discuss: Would Apostles who did not clarify their view on the Trinity be excluded from salvation?
Discuss: Paul said we see though a glass darkly. Did Paul not know the true nature of the Trinity as claimed by Modalists, Trinitarians, etc.?
68. Verses
Let us look at some Bible verses that mention the Trinity or help to clarify the relationship between the parts of the Trinity.
69. Matthew 28:18-20
70. Matthew 28:18
KJV: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Greek: και προσελθων ο ιησους ελαλησεν αυτοις λεγων εδοθη μοι πασα εξουσια εν ουρανω και επι της γης
71. Matthew 28:19
KJV: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Greek: πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος
Latin: euntes ergo docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti
72. Matthew 28:20
KJV: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Greek: διδασκοντες αυτους τηρειν παντα οσα ενετειλαμην υμιν και ιδου εγω μεθ υμων ειμι πασας τας ημερας εως της συντελειας του αιωνος αμην
73. Paul
Paul mentions all three in 2 Corinthians 13:14. This is the ending verse of the letter.
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas. [kjv]
η χαρις του κυριου ιησου χριστου και η αγαπη του θεου και η κοινωνια του αγιου πνευματος μετα παντων υμων [gnt]
Jesus is included but not with an explicit name of "
Son".
74. 2 Corinthians 13:14
KJV: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.
Greek: η χαρις του κυριου ιησου χριστου και η αγαπη του θεου και η κοινωνια του αγιου πνευματος μετα παντων υμων αμην προς κορινθιους δευτερα εγραφη απο φιλιππων της μακεδονιας δια τιτου και λουκα
Latin: gratia Domini nostri Iesu Christi et caritas Dei et communicatio Sancti Spiritus cum omnibus vobis amen
... more to be added ...
75. Hour and time
Talking of the end of time in the last days, in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, Jesus says the following.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [kjv]
Does the "
Father" know something that the "
Son" does not know?
Discuss: How can Jesus be God if the Father knows something that he does not know?
If Jesus is also the Father, does this discrepancy disappear?
In what other ways might this statement be explained?
76. Matthew 24:36
KJV: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Greek: περι δε της ημερας εκεινης και της ωρας ουδεις οιδεν ουδε οι αγγελοι των ουρανων ουδε ο υιος ει μη ο πατηρ μου μονος
77. Commutativity
An mathematical (or structures) operation is
commutative if the order of evaluation does not matter.
Commutative:
2+3 = 3+2 so addition is commutative.
2*3 = 3*2 so multiplication is commutative.
Not commutative:
2-3 != 3-2 so subtraction is not commutative.
2/3 != 3/2 so division is not commutative.
Note: The
HOV (High Occupancy Lane) is not commutative (it is usually one way) but it can be used to commute.
78. Comforter
And there appears to be a connection or association of Jesus of comforter with the rapture from John 16:7.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [kjv]
αλλ εγω την αληθειαν λεγω υμιν συμφερει υμιν ινα εγω απελθω εαν γαρ μη απελθω ο παρακλητος ου μη ελθη προς υμας εαν δε πορευθω πεμψω αυτον προς υμας [gnt]
That is, if Jesus needs to leave for the comforter to come, and that condition is
commutative, then Jesus cannot come back until the comforter leaves. If the comforter cannot be taken away, then the resolution of that paradox is that those with the comforter must also be taken away before Jesus comes back.
79. John 16:7
KJV: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Greek: αλλ εγω την αληθειαν λεγω υμιν συμφερει υμιν ινα εγω απελθω εαν γαρ μη απελθω ο παρακλητος ουκ ελευσεται ου μη ελθη προς υμας εαν δε πορευθω πεμψω αυτον προς υμας
Latin: sed ego veritatem dico vobis expedit vobis ut ego vadam si enim non abiero paracletus non veniet ad vos si autem abiero mittam eum ad vos
Wessex: ac ic segge sodfaestnysse. Eow fremed þaet ic fare. Gyf ic ne fare ne kymð se frofriende to eow. Witoðlice gyf ic fare. ich hine sende to eow.
Wycliffe: But Y seie to you treuthe, it spedith to you, that Y go; for if Y go not forth, the coumfortour schal not come to you; but if Y go forth, Y schal sende hym to you.
Gothic: akei ik sunja izwis qitha: batizo ist izwis ei ik galeithau; unte jabai ik ni galeitha, parakletus ni qimith at izwis; aththan jabai gagga, sandja ina du izwis.
Luther: Aber ich sage euch die Wahrheit: Es ist euch gut, daß ich hingehe. Denn so ich nicht hingehe, so kommt der Tröster nicht zu euch; so ich aber gehe, will ich ihn zu euch senden.
Spanish: Mas yo os digo la verdad: Os es necesario que yo me vaya; porque si no me fuera, el Consolador no vendría a vosotros; mas si me fuere, os le enviaré.
80. Comforter
This connection does not imply nor require that this property is true for all time before and after this period of time (e.g., at the transfiguration).
81. The Holy Ghost as comforter
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [kjv]
ο δε παρακλητος το πνευμα το αγιον ο πεμψει ο πατηρ εν τω ονοματι μου εκεινος υμας διδαξει παντα και υπομνησει υμας παντα α ειπον υμιν εγω [gnt]
paracletus … Spiritus Sanctus … [v]
The ancient Greek word
"παράκλητος" ≈ "advocate" as in the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. The ancient Greek word
"πνεῦμα" ≈ "air, wind, breath, life, spirit, soul" where the exact meaning depends on context. The Latin word
"spiritus" ≈ "spirit".
The "
all"
"things" is that of "
everything that you need to know" (as you need it).
In
PIE (Proto Indo-European) languages, the words "
ghost" and "
guest" are cognate. A "
ghost" or "
guest" can be either friendly or not friendly, as in (cartoon character) Casper the friendly ghost.
82. Jesus prays to the Father
When Jesus prays to the Father, there are those who say the Son must be a different person than the Father.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. [kjv]
εν εκεινω τω καιρω αποκριθεις ο ιησους ειπεν εξομολογουμαι σοι πατερ κυριε του ουρανου και της γης οτι εκρυψας ταυτα απο σοφων και συνετων και απεκαλυψας αυτα νηπιοις [gnt]
Discuss: Can Jesus the "
Son" and the "
Father" be different or must they be the same?
83. Matthew 11:25
KJV: At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Greek: εν εκεινω τω καιρω αποκριθεις ο ιησους ειπεν εξομολογουμαι σοι πατερ κυριε του ουρανου και της γης οτι απεκρυψας εκρυψας ταυτα απο σοφων και συνετων και απεκαλυψας αυτα νηπιοις
84. Reflexive self-reference
An owner of a hotel may say to a customer, "
I will talk to the owner about this" without letting the customer know that he or she is the owner. This is in the movie Home Alone where the toy store owner talks to Kevin.
Someone may ask a question in a group that "
someone asked them" about such and such. It may have been that person asking themselves.
Both of these are reflexive relationships.
85. Seeing God
There appears to be no way to know the exact nature of the Trinity. We cannot see
inside the box. Nor can we see
outside the box since we are
inside the box. And it is not clear that we really need to know the exact nature of the Trinity.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. [kjv]
θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο [gnt]
How might you determine the difference between the models?
86. John 1:18
KJV: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Greek: θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο
87. Summary
We have looked at various "
aspects" of the views of the Trinity.
Note that showing that bad logic is used to justify a position does not make the position false.
88. End of page
John 7:50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them, ) [kjv]
7:51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? [kjv]
7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet. [kjv]
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [kjv]
και προσελθων ο ιησους ελαλησεν αυτοις λεγων εδοθη μοι πασα εξουσια εν ουρανω και επι της γης [gnt]
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [kjv]
πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος [gnt]
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. [kjv]
διδασκοντες αυτους τηρειν παντα οσα ενετειλαμην υμιν και ιδου εγω μεθ υμων ειμι πασας τας ημερας εως της συντελειας του αιωνος [gnt]
