Matthew 6:7-8 Vain repetitions of vain repetitions

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. [kjv]

The following ancient Greek words are related.

"ταμεῖον" ≈ "storehouse, storeroom"
"ταμιεῖον" ≈ "storehouse, storeroom"
"ταμιεύω" ≈ "run a household, look after stores".

The word appears in the GNT (Greek New Testament) four times and a similar word eleven times in the LXX (Septuagint). The KJV (King James Version) translates this word in the GNT several ways.

closet (2)
secret chambers (1)
storehouse (1)

Sometimes the word used in a literal sense, sometimes in a figurative sense and sometimes both ways at the same time.

Despite the explanation given by Strongs, It is not clear where this meaning originated. The English word "closet" is, through French, from the Latin word "clausum" ≈ "enclosed space" as in "claustrophobia",

More: Matthew 6:6 A storehouse of secret chambers: praying in the closet

Matthew 6:7

All

KJV: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Greek: προσευχομενοι δε μη βαττολογησητε βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται

Latin: orantes autem nolite multum loqui sicut ethnici putant enim quia in multiloquio suo exaudiantur

Tyndale: And whe ye praye bable not moche as the hethe do: for they thincke that they shalbe herde for their moche bablynges sake.

Matthew 6:8

All

KJV: Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Greek: μη ουν ομοιωθητε αυτοις οιδεν γαρ ο θεος ο πατηρ υμων ων χρειαν εχετε προ του υμας αιτησαι αυτον

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. [kjv]

μη ουν ομοιωθητε αυτοις οιδεν γαρ ο θεος ο πατηρ υμων ων χρειαν εχετε προ του υμας αιτησαι αυτον [gnt]

In Matthew 6:7, as part of the "Sermon on the Mount", Jesus says not to pray using "vain repetitions" as the "heathen" do.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

This is a specific instance of the idea that "if some is good then more is better". Some pastors (and others) boast that as a child (or even now) they repeat the Lord's Prayer every night.

A few verses later is the "Lord's Prayer" which, as an example, does not have repetitions within itself, but could be repeated at different times.

Some pastor appear to think that they get "paid by the word" according to quantity and not quality. At times producing meaningless or even deceptive content, they may lecture their congregations about trying to keep the pastor to any time schedule.

More: Matthew 6:7-15 Lord's Prayer in Matthew

More: Empty words

The word for "vain repetitions" appears once in the GNT and not in the LXX.

Repetition has to do with doing something over and over again.

1. I repeat. Repetition has to do with doing something over and over again.
2. I repeat. Repetition has to do with doing something over and over again.
3. I repeat. Repetition has to do with doing something over and over again.
Go back and continue with step 1.

I think you get the idea with the overly redundant and repetitive and repeated examples.

There are two things that are better left unsaid.

There are three points to keep in mind when drawing a triangle.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

Luther, and other Protestants, have used this verse on "vain repetitions" or "rote prayer" or "prayer without understanding" (or thinking) to attack Catholic practices such as "rosaries".

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

Jesus uses the words for "tax collectors" to refer to both the "birds" and the "pigs" and the word for "heathen" or "ethnics" to refer the "fish" in the "sea" of "humanity".

Dilbert

A common cartoon theme in Dilbert is that of the manager not being understood by employees. A typical managerial way to address the problem is to repeat what was said, only louder and more slowly. As if that is the source of the problem.

More: Matthew 5:13-16 Animal crackers

A redundant place name is a name that, over time, has become redundant even though most people do not realize it.

At one time, the German "Tal" was pronounced as (English) "thal". A valley in Germany was named for Joachim Neander, who wrote many songs.

The valley was the "Neander-thal" valley which is a redundant place name. The term "Neanderthal Valley" means the "Neander valley valley"

Hundreds of years later, bones were discovered in the "Neander-thal" valley and the people from whom these bones came were named "Neanderthals".

More: Song: Praise to the Lord

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. [kjv]

παντι αιτουντι σε διδου και απο του αιροντος τα σα μη απαιτει [gnt]

… repetas [v]

The English word "repeat" is from the Middle English word "repeten" ≈ "repeat" which is, through French, from the Latin word "repeto" ≈ "attack, resume, recount" and is from two Latin words.

The Latin prefix "re" ≈ "again" though it can mean "added emphasis" in English.
The Latin word "peto" ≈ "attack, request" as in a "petition".

Here are several verses that use the Latin word in the Vulgate. How well does "attack", "resume" or "recount" fit the verse?

More: Matthew 5:42 Do not loan shirk

Luke 6:30

All

KJV: Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Greek: παντι δε τω αιτουντι σε διδου και απο του αιροντος τα σα μη απαιτει

Latin: omni autem petenti te tribue et qui aufert quae tua sunt ne repetas

Proverbs 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends. [kjv]

ος κρυπτει αδικηματα ζητει φιλιαν ος δε μισει κρυπτειν διιστησιν φιλους και οικειους [lxx]

He that conceals injuries seeks love; but he that hates to hide them separates friends and kindred. [bs3]

… repete… [por]

Some people take repetition as a form of verbal attack. Interestingly, this goes back to the original Latin meaning.
This way and that way

The redundancy is similar to talking about "the global worldwide pandemic that is everywhere".
Such statements annoy some people.

Proverbs 17:9

All

KJV: He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.

Hebrew: מכסה פשע מבקש אהבה ושנה בדבר מפריד אלוף׃

Greek: ος κρυπτει αδικηματα ζητει φιλιαν ος δε μισει κρυπτειν διιστησιν φιλους και οικειους

Brenton: He that conceals injuries seeks love; but he that hates to hide them separates friends and kindred.

Latin: qui celat delictum quaerit amicitias qui altero sermone repetit separat foederatos

Wycliffe: He that helith trespas, sekith frenschipis; he that rehersith bi an hiy word, departith hem, that ben knyt togidere in pees.

Luther: Wer Sünde zudeckt, der macht Freundschaft; wer aber die Sache aufrührt, der macht Fürsten uneins.

Spanish: El que cubre la falta, busca amistad; mas el que la divulga, aparta a los mejores amigos.

Portuguese: Quem busca a amizade encobre as faltas; quem as conta e repete, afasta os amigos.

In sports, a team can "repeat" as champions. If this happens the next year, it is called a "three-peat" which in a registered trademark (from 1988) owned by Pat Riley (former NBA head coach).
NFL sports broadcaster (and former NFL coach) John Madden often used the phrase "three-peat".

The radio show "Empire Builders" in 1930 had some singers called the "Three visiting firemen" whose names were Pete, Re-Peat, and Three-Pete. Wikipedia. (as of 2022-04-29)

It is similar in spirit to the cricket jargon, from 1877, of a "hat trick". That idea is still used in modern hockey where three goals scored is a "hat trick".

Have you hat enough of this?

The algorithm for using shampoo is often given as follows.

Wash/Lather.
Rinse as in "separate" (Greek word for judge)
Repeat.

One can do it again, and again, and again, etc. When does one stop? Taken literally, this algorithm has no termination condition. Perhaps they want to sell more shampoo.

How many times does one need to be "born again"? What part is the same and what part is different? Fill the pews?

More: John 3 Born from the beginnings

More: Variations of born again in other words

More: Matthew 7:1-2 Here comes the judge, but just barley

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. [kjv]

μη ουν ομοιωθητε αυτοις οιδεν γαρ ο θεος ο πατηρ υμων ων χρειαν εχετε προ του υμας αιτησαι αυτον [gnt]

The next verse starts the "Lord's Prayer". How many people, pastors, churches repeat the same thing again and again? There has been a trend in music in general and church music in specific ways for worship songs to use "vain repetition" of "much speaking" or "many words" repetition.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

The 1975 #1 disco hit song, part of which goes "Oh that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh, I like it. uh-huh uh-huh." (repeat with variations without end) by KC and the Sunshine Band, contains what is, to many, empty words, repeated ad-nauseam
Some modern church music takes the cross, blood, even Jesus out of the lyrics. Some pastors try to reduce the blood to one drop.

More: John 6:53-61 Misinterpretation and the disappearing blood

More: The one drop of blood salvation fallacy

More: Empty words

Suppose a spouse tells a joke (or story, etc.) to the other spouse.

A common response is that "you have told that joke to me a thousand times".

We tell ourselves that what we can do once, we can also do twice and by induction we fool ourselves into believing that we can do it as many times as needed, but this is just not true! A factor of a thousand is already far beyond our powers of imagination. Edsger Dijkstra (computer scientist)

Dahl, O., Dijkstra, E., & Hoare, C. (1972). Structured programming. New York: Academic Press., p. 2.

More: Edsger Dijkstra

For us humans, everything is permanent - until it changes, as we are immortal until we die. Malcolm Muggeridge (British broadcaster)

More: Malcolm Muggeridge

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

The "much speaking" is in the Greek, literally, "many words".

The ancient Greek word "πολύ" ≈ "many" as in the English prefix "poly" as in "polynomial", "polygamy", etc.
The ancient Greek word "λόγος" ≈ "word" and is the source of the English word "logic".

"The more the better".
"More isn't always better, sometimes it is just more".

The "heathen" expect to be heard for their "much speaking", as if "more is better".

Peter is often accused of this. That is, "if a little is good, then more is better".

Details are left as a future topic.

*G4180 *1 πολυλογία (pol-oo-log-ee'-ah) : from a compound of G4183 and G3056; loquacity, i.e. prolixity:--much speaking.

Words: πολυλογια=1

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

The KJV uses "heathen". Some translations use "pagans" or "gentiles".

The Greek word is that of "ethnicity" having to do with people in general.

The ancient Greek word "ἐθνικός" ≈ "national" and comes from the ancient Greek word "ἔθνος" ≈ "tribe, family, nation" but can mean any group such as a group of animals (flock, herd, etc.).

In Jewish and Christian terminology, this word often means gentiles. Does it always mean gentiles?

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

Question: Does this use of "ethnicity" in the Greek imply that this statement only applies to gentiles? Might it apply to any people or group of people?

If it only applies to gentiles, then what analogy might Jesus be making to "praying" to God?

Historically, the Greeks and others would repeat things, loudly if necessary, so the example would not be unknown to the people listening to Jesus.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

The English word "mantra" is from the Sanskrit and literally means "instrument of thought" as would be practiced, for example, in Hinduism.

\In modern terms, a "mantra" is used do describe marketing campaigns that use catch phrases or slogans that are repeated often.

In Buddhism, bells have many important meanings and are rung and kept ringing as if the repetition will have a good effect such as calling one to prayer, etc.

In the story of Elijah and false prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18:20-40, Elijah taunts the false prophets as if they need to make more noise to be heard by their god.

Details are left as a future topic.

*G1482 *4 ἐθνικός (eth-nee-kos') : from G1484; national ("ethnic"), i.e. (specially) a Gentile:--heathen (man).

Usage

All

εθνικοι *2

Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, ...
Matthew 6:7 ... not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that ...

εθνικος

Matthew 18:17 ... let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

εθνικων

3 John 1:7 Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking ...

*G1482 *4 ἐθνικός (eth-nee-kos') : from G1484; national ("ethnic"), i.e. (specially) a Gentile:--heathen (man).

Words: εθνικοι=2 εθνικος εθνικων

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

The word for "think" is the ancient Greek word "δοκέω" ≈ "expect, think, suppose".

An expectation is something that you think should happen or be true. An interesting connection might be made to the following.

Ancient Greek words:

"δοκέω" ≈ "expect, think, suppose"
"δοκεῖν" ≈ "they expect, think, suppose"
"δόκος" ≈ "beam" (nominative case)
"δοκον" ≈ "beam" (accusative case)

Both words start with the same three letters but then have different endings. The "beam" play on words will be near the start of Matthew 7 (next chapter).

More: Matthew 7:3-5 Beams and motes: the devil is in the details

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [kjv]

προσευχομενοι δε μη βατταλογησητε ωσπερ οι εθνικοι δοκουσιν γαρ οτι εν τη πολυλογια αυτων εισακουσθησονται [gnt]

The idea of "vain repetitions" is that of repeating something again and again. The implication is that this is like "babbling".

However, "babbling", almost by definition, is meaningless and unrecognizable talk. This talk is recognizable but not important as it does not add any more information to what has already been said.

Discuss: How dependent is "babbling" dependent on the speaker? How dependent is "babbling" dependent on the listener?

More: The original Babel and Babylon

More: A tongue in cheek model for Pentecost

Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? … [kjv]

τινες δε και των επικουρειων και στωικων φιλοσοφων συνεβαλλον αυτω και τινες ελεγον τι αν θελοι ο σπερμολογος ουτος λεγειν οι δε ξενων δαιμονιων δοκει καταγγελευς ειναι οτι τον ιησουν και την αναστασιν ευηγγελιζετο [gnt]

… seminiverbius … [v]

… sowere of wordis … [wy]

Some puns are that of meaning rather than a play on words. These are sometimes described by the saying "do as I say and not as I do". In Acts 17 at Mars Hill, Paul is ridiculed as doing what the people saying it about him are doing.

Wycliffe has a direct translation close to the original Greek as in "sower of words". The later translations as "babbler" appear to be influenced by the Latin word "seminiverbius" ≈ "babbler".

The Latin prefix "semi" ≈ "half".
The Latin word "verbum" ≈ "word" and is the source of the English word "verb" (which is a noun).

The idea of a "babbler" is someone who uses half words or not complete words, or something like that.

More: Stoics and Epicureans

*G945 *1 βαττολογέω (bat-tol-og-eh'-o) : from Battos (a proverbial stammerer) and G3056; to stutter, i.e. (by implication) to prate tediously:--use vain repetitions.

Words: βατταλογησητε=1

The Greek word may be related to the Hebrew or Aramaic.

To the Greek for "babbling".
To the Hebrew for "batel" meaning "vain".

The Hebrew word "בטל" (batel) ≈ "cease".

*H988 בָּטֵל (baw-tale') : a primitive root; to desist from labor:--cease.

Today the Greek «β» (beta) is pronounced with a "v" (English) sound. Words such as this (and others) let us know that at the time of Christ, the Greek «β» (beta) had a "b" (English) sound.

With repeated requests, a not unusual response might be the following.

What part of no do you not understand?

When was the song "What part of no" was recorded and released by country music star Lorrie Morgan as part of the album Watch Me?

December 1992.

One might compare "vain repetitions" of "much speaking" with "empty words"

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. [kjv]

μηδεις υμας απατατω κενοις λογοις δια ταυτα γαρ ερχεται η οργη του θεου επι τους υιους της απειθειας [gnt]

… seducat inanibus verbis … [v]

An empty word (or words) has no grammatical function and, if removed, does not change the meaning of the sentence. Phrases may be referred to as LIC (Low Information Content) expressions or phrases. Saying: Words empty as the wind are best left unsaid.
Paul in Ephesians 5:6 warns of "empty words" used to "deceive". The LXX in Job 6:6 talks of "empty words" which, in the Hebrew and KJV, is "white of an egg".

More: Empty words

One might compare "vain repetitions" of "much speaking" with "idle words.
"

(bottom-up forward-chaining)

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. [kjv]

12:32 And who soever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but who soever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. [kjv]

12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. [kjv]

12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. [kjv]

What is the "unpardonable sin"? What is an "idle word"? How might they be related? How are they related to "treasure".

More: Matthew 13: Fifth kingdom parable: treasure in a field

More: Matthew 13: Eighth kingdom parable: treasure of new and old codes

More: Matthew 12:30-37 Pardon the idle word counting

In the verse after the "vain repetitions" and "much speaking" Jesus says that the Father already knows what you "need".

Matthew 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. [kjv]

μη ουν ομοιωθητε αυτοις οιδεν γαρ ο θεος ο πατηρ υμων ων χρειαν εχετε προ του υμας αιτησαι αυτον [gnt]

What you "need" may be different than what you "want". The Greek word can mean either depending on context. The Greek word translated as "need" often has the idea of something that is "useful" as in "use".
Discuss: Provide some examples of "wants" and "needs" and some instances where a "want" is not a "need".

One goal in the field of marketing is to get people to "want" what they might not "need".

The operative word here is to get you to "covet" something.

More: The coveting of greed

*G5532 *49 χρεία (khri'-ah) : from the base of G5530 or G5534; employment, i.e. an affair; also (by implication) occasion, demand, requirement or destitution:--business, lack, necessary(-ity), need(-ful), use, want.

Words: χρεια=2 χρειαις=2 χρειαν=40 χρειας=5

A few verses later is the "Lord's Prayer" which, as an example, does not have repetitions.

Details are left as a future topic.

Since the Lord's Prayer does not have repetitions, one can just repeat the Lord's Prayer over and over again. How might this violate the spirit of the verse about "vain repetitions"?

Does repeating the prayer "Now I lay me down to sleep" every night count as a "vain repetition"?

This prayer, in middle English, goes back to George Wheler and 1698. Wikipedia. (as of 2022-04-29)

Matthew 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. [kjv]

μη ουν ομοιωθητε αυτοις οιδεν γαρ ο θεος ο πατηρ υμων ων χρειαν εχετε προ του υμας αιτησαι αυτον [gnt]

The Greek word translated as "need" can, depending on context, be a "want".

What is the difference between "needs" and "wants"?