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John 21:24-25 Giving way to the gospel writing style of John
1. The Gospel styles and the Q source hypothesis
The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are called the "
Synoptic" Gospels, where "
Synoptic" means "
same view". There are similarities and differences between these Gospels. The book of John has a different structure.
The "
Q source" gospel, also called the "
Q Gospel", etc., dating from about 1900, assumes that the saying of Jesus were written in a
lost set of manuscripts, called "
Q", and used by Matthew, Mark and Luke to write their gospels.
The letter "
Q" in "
Q source" comes from the German word
"Quelle" ≈ "source, spring (of water)".
There are many problems with this assumption. Note that John has a very different writing style.
2. John 21:25
KJV: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Greek: εστιν δε και αλλα πολλα οσα α εποιησεν ο ιησους ατινα εαν γραφηται καθ εν ουδε ουδ αυτον οιμαι τον κοσμον χωρησαι χωρησειν τα γραφομενα βιβλια αμην
3. John 21:24 Writing what is true
John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. [kjv]
ουτος εστιν ο μαθητης ο μαρτυρων περι τουτων και ο γραψας ταυτα και οιδαμεν οτι αληθης αυτου η μαρτυρια εστιν [gnt]
This is the next to last verse in the Gospel of John.
We "
know" this. Do we "
know that we know"? Is that important?
4. Reflexive fixed point: Know that we know
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [kjv]
και εν τουτω γινωσκομεν οτι εγνωκαμεν αυτον εαν τας εντολας αυτου τηρωμεν [gnt]
In John 2:3, John will, as usual, write as a computer scientist, this time in the field of intelligent distributed systems, when he writes that "
we know that we know".
How do you
"know" something?
I "know" something.
I "know" that I "know" something.
I "know" that I "know" that I "know" something.
... and so on.
When is the reflexive fixed point reached? Saying this twice is both necessary and sufficient.
5. John 21:24
KJV: This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Greek: ουτος εστιν ο μαθητης ο μαρτυρων περι τουτων και ο γραψας ταυτα και οιδαμεν οτι αληθης εστιν αυτου η μαρτυρια αυτου εστιν
6. John 21:25 Things that could be written
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. [kjv]
εστιν δε και αλλα πολλα α εποιησεν ο ιησους ατινα εαν γραφηται καθ εν ουδ αυτον οιμαι τον κοσμον χωρησειν τα γραφομενα βιβλια [gnt]
This is the
final verse of the Gospel book of John. This verse is part of many
ARMS (Attractive Refrigerator Magnet Sermons).
How many things are there that were not written?
Could the world contain all of those books if written?
It can be entertaining and amusing at times to listen to pastors, who tend to not really understand quantitative analysis, logical models, statistical reasoning, etc., attempt to explain this verse.
To fully understand this verse, it helps to know something about the writing style of John.
7. John 21:24-25 Giving way to the gospel writing style of John
In theory, a well-written computer program has nothing in it that is not needed. Everything is important in some way. Any change may make the program stop working. In reality, there are times that code is left in programs that is not really needed but it takes time to take it out, etc.
[junk DNA, redundancy for fault tolerance]
If John were writing as a computer scientist, then everything John writes would be important in some way. Anything not needed would have been omitted. The logic presented does not need to be in chronological order nor include extra detail.
John actually says this but many people miss the point. To fully understand, an important word needs to be covered after covering the other words in this verse.
8. John 21:25 Written scrolls and books
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. [kjv]
εστιν δε και αλλα πολλα α εποιησεν ο ιησους ατινα εαν γραφηται καθ εν ουδ αυτον οιμαι τον κοσμον χωρησειν τα γραφομενα βιβλια [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"βίβλος" ≈ "scroll, book" and is the source of the English word
"Bible".
The ancient Greek word
"γράφω" ≈ "write, depict" and is the source of the English word
"graph". One idea is that the Greek word was onomatopoeia and came from the sound of scribes using inscribing tools on tablets and making the sound of
"grph",
"grph",
"grph".
9. John 21:25 People in the world
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. [kjv]
εστιν δε και αλλα πολλα α εποιησεν ο ιησους ατινα εαν γραφηται καθ εν ουδ αυτον οιμαι τον κοσμον χωρησειν τα γραφομενα βιβλια [gnt]
When Jesus, Paul, John, etc., use this verse, the word for
"world" means
"the people in the world". Over time, the primary meaning drifted to the
"world" as in the
"physical universe".
"κόσμος" ≈ "order, government, ornament, world, universe, mankind" and is the source of the English word "cosmos".
"κοσμέω" ≈ "order, arrange, adorn" and is the source of the English word "cosmetics".
How might this insight into the meaning of
"world" as
"(people in the) world" alter the meaning of the English translation of this verse?
10. John 15:18-19 Hate of the world
John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [kjv]
ει ο κοσμος υμας μισει γινωσκετε οτι εμε πρωτον υμων μεμισηκεν [gnt]
15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. [kjv]
ει εκ του κοσμου ητε ο κοσμος αν το ιδιον εφιλει οτι δε εκ του κοσμου ουκ εστε αλλ εγω εξελεξαμην υμας εκ του κοσμου δια τουτο μισει υμας ο κοσμος [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"μισέω" ≈ "hate" and is from
"μῖσος" ≈ "hatred, hate" and appears to be pre-Greek in origin. It is the source of the first part of the English word
"misogynist" as someone who
"hates" "
women". Jesus says that the world will
"hate" his followers because the world
"hates" Jesus (and God). The church is the bride of Christ who is the groom. Does this make the
"world" a "
misogynist"?
If the
"(people in the) world" loves it's own, is it possible to "
out-love" the
"world" without becoming of the
"world"?
11. John 15:18
KJV: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Greek: ει ο κοσμος υμας μισει γινωσκετε οτι εμε πρωτον υμων μεμισηκεν
12. John 15:19
KJV: If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Greek: ει εκ του κοσμου ητε ο κοσμος αν το ιδιον εφιλει οτι δε εκ του κοσμου ουκ εστε αλλ εγω εξελεξαμην υμας εκ του κοσμου δια τουτο μισει υμας ο κοσμος
13. John 7:7 Hate
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. [kjv]
ου δυναται ο κοσμος μισειν υμας εμε δε μισει οτι εγω μαρτυρω περι αυτου οτι τα εργα αυτου πονηρα εστιν [gnt]
14. John 7:7
KJV: The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Greek: ου δυναται ο κοσμος μισειν υμας εμε δε μισει οτι εγω μαρτυρω περι αυτου οτι τα εργα αυτου πονηρα εστιν
15. Strongs - give way
- *G5562 *8 χωρέω (kho-reh'-o) : from G5561; to be in (give) space, i.e. (intransitively) to pass, enter, or (transitively) to hold, admit (literally or figuratively):--come, contain, go, have place, (can, be room to) receive.
- χωρειν *2
- Matthew 19:12 ... sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
- Mark 2:2 ... were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: ...
- χωρει
- Matthew 15:17 ... entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and ...
- χωρουσιν
- Matthew 19:11 ... unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save ...
- χωρειτω
- Matthew 19:12 ... sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
- χωρουσαι
- John 2:6 ... after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three ...
- χωρησατε
- 2 Corinthians 7:2 Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, ...
- χωρησαι
- 2 Peter 3:9 ... should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
16. Usage - give way
*G5562 *8 χωρέω (kho-reh'-o) : from G5561; to be in (give) space, i.e. (intransitively) to pass, enter, or (transitively) to hold, admit (literally or figuratively):--come, contain, go, have place, (can, be room to) receive.
 |
Words: χωρει χωρειν=2 χωρειτω χωρησαι χωρησατε χωρουσαι χωρουσιν
|
The ancient Greek word
"χωρέω" ≈ "give way, make way" as in
"creating space". This word comes from the ancient Greek word
"χῶρος" ≈ "space, room" and is related to
"χώρα" ≈ "location, place, spot" and may be related to
"χηρα" ≈ "widow" (as in "
left behind") and may be related to the Latin word
"locus" ≈ "place, spot". There are many related meanings. Many translations of this word in the
GNT (Greek New Testament) appear only in the
GNT.
17. Matthew 15:17 Give way to more food
Jesus makes a distinction between the "
belly" and the "
heart".
Matthew 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? [kjv]
ου νοειτε οτι παν το εισπορευομενον εις το στομα εις την κοιλιαν χωρει και εις αφεδρωνα εκβαλλεται [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"ἀφεδρών" ≈ "toilet" and comes from
"ἕδρα" ≈ "seat", as in "
cathedral", "
polyhedron", etc. The the prefix
"ἀπο" ≈ "away from" which has an idea of a "
separating distance".
The English word
"draught" is an older and obsolete word for "
outhouse" as a "
toilet".
The ancient Greek word
"χωρέω" ≈ "give way, make way". That is, what goes in pushes out what is there such that what is in
"gives way" or
"makes way" to what is coming in.
18. Matthew 19:11-12 Give way to these sayings
Matthew 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. [kjv]
ο δε ειπεν αυτοις ου παντες χωρουσιν τον λογον αλλ οις δεδοται [gnt]
19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. [kjv]
εισιν γαρ ευνουχοι οιτινες εκ κοιλιας μητρος εγεννηθησαν ουτως και εισιν ευνουχοι οιτινες ευνουχισθησαν υπο των ανθρωπων και εισιν ευνουχοι οιτινες ευνουχισαν εαυτους δια την βασιλειαν των ουρανων ο δυναμενος χωρειν χωρειτω [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"χωρέω" ≈ "give way, make way". Some cannot
"give way" or
"make way" to this "
saying". The Greek word translated as "
saying" is that of "
reasoning". There is a common Greek word for a "
spoken word" that is
not used here.
The Greek word for "
eunuch" as used by Jesus may be a play on words with a double meaning which the disciples do not grasp.
19. Matthew 19:11
KJV: But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Greek: ο δε ειπεν αυτοις ου παντες χωρουσιν τον λογον τουτον αλλ οις δεδοται
20. Matthew 19:12
KJV: For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Greek: εισιν γαρ ευνουχοι οιτινες εκ κοιλιας μητρος εγεννηθησαν ουτως και εισιν ευνουχοι οιτινες ευνουχισθησαν υπο των ανθρωπων και εισιν ευνουχοι οιτινες ευνουχισαν εαυτους δια την βασιλειαν των ουρανων ο δυναμενος χωρειν χωρειτω
21. John 2:6 Pots giving way for water
John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. [kjv]
ησαν δε εκει λιθιναι υδριαι εξ κατα τον καθαρισμον των ιουδαιων κειμεναι χωρουσαι ανα μετρητας δυο η τρεις [gnt]
… hydriae … secundum purificationem … capientes … metretas … [v]
The ancient Greek word
"μέτρον" ≈ "measure, distance" represents a
continuous range of
"distance" values and could be length, width, breadth, etc. John just says a
"measure". This word is used only here. It is unclear how it was decided the amount of this
"measure". The word used by John is the suffix to the Greek word for
"geometry".
The ancient Greek word
"χωρέω" ≈ "give way, make way". The water pots
"give way" or
"make way" to a certain amount of liquid.
22. Strongs - measure
- *G3355 *1 μετρητής (met-ray-tace') : from G3354; a measurer, i.e. (specially), a certain standard measure of capacity for liquids:--firkin.
- μετρητας
- John 2:6 ... two or three firkins apiece.
23. Usage - measure
*G3355 *1 μετρητής (met-ray-tace') : from G3354; a measurer, i.e. (specially), a certain standard measure of capacity for liquids:--firkin.
 |
Words: μετρητας
|
The ancient Greek word
"μέτρον" ≈ "measure, distance" represents a
continuous range of
"distance" values and could be length, width, breadth, etc. John just says a
"measure". This word is used only here. It is unclear how it was decided the amount of this
"measure". The word used by John is the suffix to the Greek word for
"geometry".
24. John 2:6
KJV: And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
Greek: ησαν δε εκει υδριαι λιθιναι υδριαι εξ κειμεναι κατα τον καθαρισμον των ιουδαιων κειμεναι χωρουσαι ανα μετρητας δυο η τρεις
Latin: erant autem ibi lapideae hydriae sex positae secundum purificationem Iudaeorum capientes singulae metretas binas vel ternas
25. Mark 2:2 No room to give way
Mark 2:2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. [kjv]
και συνηχθησαν πολλοι ωστε μηκετι χωρειν μηδε τα προς την θυραν και ελαλει αυτοις τον λογον [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"χωρέω" ≈ "give way, make way".
There was no room to
"give way" or
"make way" for them.
The Greek translated as "
preached" is that of "
spoke". The Greek translated as "
word" is that of "
reasoning".
Yogi Berra (about a popular nightclub):
Nobody goes there. It's too crowded.
26. Mark 2:2
KJV: And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
Greek: και ευθεως συνηχθησαν πολλοι ωστε μηκετι χωρειν μηδε τα προς την θυραν και ελαλει αυτοις τον λογον
27. 2 Corinthians 7:2 Give way for us
2 Corinthians 7:2 Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man. [kjv]
χωρησατε ημας ουδενα ηδικησαμεν ουδενα εφθειραμεν ουδενα επλεονεκτησαμεν [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"χωρέω" ≈ "give way, make way".
They are to
"give way" or
"make way" for us. There are other common Greek words for
"receive" or
"accept". They are
not used here.
☐ Can you
"receive" someone without
"giving way" or
"making way" for them?
☐ Can you
"give way" or
"make way" for someone without
"receiving" them?
The ancient Greek word
"δέχομαι" ≈ "receive, accept, take, believe".
28. Matthew 10:38-40 Transitive reception
Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [kjv]
και ος ου λαμβανει τον σταυρον αυτου και ακολουθει οπισω μου ουκ εστιν μου αξιος [gnt]
10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. [kjv]
ο ευρων την ψυχην αυτου απολεσει αυτην και ο απολεσας την ψυχην αυτου ενεκεν εμου ευρησει αυτην [gnt]
10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. [kjv]
ο δεχομενος υμας εμε δεχεται και ο εμε δεχομενος δεχεται τον αποστειλαντα με [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"δέχομαι" ≈ "receive, accept, take, believe".
The ancient Greek word
"λαμβάνω" ≈ "take hold of, grasp, seize".
You are to "
follow behind" and not "
lead in front". The Greek for "
follow" is the source of the English word
"acolyte" and means, literally, "
not commanding" or "
not leading". You are to "
do" what Jesus wants you to "
do".
29. Matthew 10:38
KJV: And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Greek: και ος ου λαμβανει τον σταυρον αυτου και ακολουθει οπισω μου ουκ εστιν μου αξιος
30. Matthew 10:39
KJV: He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Greek: ο ευρων την ψυχην αυτου απολεσει αυτην και ο απολεσας την ψυχην αυτου ενεκεν εμου ευρησει αυτην
31. Matthew 10:40
KJV: He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Greek: ο δεχομενος υμας εμε δεχεται και ο εμε δεχομενος δεχεται τον αποστειλαντα με
32. Matthew 13:20 Receiving the reasoning
This verse is from the Parable of the Sower, the first of the Kingdom Parables in Matthew 13.
Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; [kjv]
ο δε επι τα πετρωδη σπαρεις ουτος εστιν ο τον λογον ακουων και ευθυς μετα χαρας λαμβανων αυτον [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"λαμβάνω" ≈ "take hold of, grasp, seize". This is someone who (
actively and
boldly)
"takes" it and does not (
passively and
humbly)
"receive" it.
☐ Can you
"take" the "
reasoning" of Jesus? Might this be for nefarious purposes?
☐ Can you
"receive" the "
reasoning" of Jesus?
The Greek word translated as "
joy" is that of a "
favor". In
context, a "
favor" might have the effect of "
joy".
33. Matthew 13:20
KJV: But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Greek: ο δε επι τα πετρωδη σπαρεις ουτος εστιν ο τον λογον ακουων και ευθυς μετα χαρας λαμβανων αυτον
34. 2 Corinthians 7:2
KJV: Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.
Greek: χωρησατε ημας ουδενα ηδικησαμεν ουδενα εφθειραμεν ουδενα επλεονεκτησαμεν
35. 2 Peter 3:9 Make way for repentance
Peter tells us that the Lord is not
"slow" but will delay coming to give all a chance to
"make way" to
"repent" as in an
"after thought". When it happens, it will happen "
quickly".
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [kjv]
ου βραδυνει κυριος της επαγγελιας ως τινες βραδυτητα ηγουνται αλλα μακροθυμει εις υμας μη βουλομενος τινας απολεσθαι αλλα παντας εις μετανοιαν χωρησαι [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"βραδύνω" ≈ "make slow, delay" which comes from
"βραδύς" ≈ "slow" and which is the opposite of
"ταχύς" ≈ "quick" which, depending on context, might mean "
soon".
The ancient Greek word
"χωρέω" ≈ "give way, make way". Those described should
"give way" or
"make way" for
"repentance". The Greek word for
"repentance" means, literally, to
"think after" what one is doing.
"Repentance" starts in the mind. There is another Greek word for "
change what you are doing".
36. John 21:25 Omitted happenings
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. [kjv]
εστιν δε και αλλα πολλα α εποιησεν ο ιησους ατινα εαν γραφηται καθ εν ουδ αυτον οιμαι τον κοσμον χωρησειν τα γραφομενα βιβλια [gnt]
The ancient Greek word
"χωρέω" ≈ "give way, make way". As John relates many times, Jesus says that the
"(people in the) world" hates Jesus. Is it possible for the
"(people in the) world" to
"give way" or
"make way" for more than what John wrote? Is what John wrote
sufficient for them to make a decision? Peter talks about that same chance to
"make way" for
"thinking after" what they are doing.
There obviously was a lot more that could have been added. John, thinking like a computer scientist, has provided sufficient justification for the
"(people in the) world" to decide to
"give way" and
"think after" what they are doing and make the needed adjustments.
37. Briefness
It takes time to make things more concise - whether it be computer programs or letters - and still convey the desired meanings.
Blaise Pascal (French mathematician, physicist, inventor, philosopher and theologian) was the inventor of the calculator and other inventions, wrote the following (in French), from Wikipedia.
French:
Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte.
Literal translation:
I made this one [letter] longer only because I have not had the leisure to make it shorter.
This could be translated as follows.
I would have written a shorter letter but I did not have time.
How might this idea expressed by Blaise Pascal relate to the writing style of John and the final verse of John?
38. End of page
